The evolving role of Customer Success in hyper-growth companies

David Apple


Head of Customer Success


David Apple
David Apple

Episode Summary

Today on the show we have David Apple, Head of Customer Success at Notion.

In this episode, we talked about the conflict between Sales and Customer Success and how it can be avoided, what the leading indicators of retention are at Typeform VS Notion, and how Typeform’s CS team segments its customers based on their retention rate to help prioritize, appoint resources, and make decisions.

We also discussed why sooner is not always better, the low touch and high touch onboarding set up at Typeform & Notion, and why the two companies waited a long time to invest a single dollar in customer acquisition plus more.


Mentioned Resources



There doesn't need to be a conflict between sales and CS. 00:02:28
Leading indicators of retention at Typeform VS Notion. 00:04:05
How segmenting their customers based on their retention rates helped Typeform’s CS team make decisions. 00:09:30
How inspiring their customers to try different use cases at the right time helped Typeform reduced churn. 00:14:30
Low touch and high touch onboarding at Typeform & Notion 00:16:06
Why Notion & Typeform waited a long time to invest a single dollar in customer acquisition. 00:21:42
The one thing David wished he knew about churn & retention before Typeform and Notion. 00:22:31


Andrew Michael: [00:00:00] hey, David. Welcome to the show.

David Apple: [00:00:02] Hey, thanks for having me.

Andrew Michael: [00:00:04] It's a pleasure for the listeners. David is the head of customer success at notion. A notion is the all-in-one workspace that serves small startups to fortune 500 companies at the last funding round in April, they were evaluated over $2 billion and their growth looks like it has no end in sight.

Prior to notion David was the general manager of the U S market and VP of customer success and sales at Typeform. So my first question for you, David, is what do you think is the biggest problem in the relationship between sales and success in an organization?

David Apple: [00:00:34] just starting with a tough question first that's okay. yeah, I think, I think at the end of the day, the. there doesn't need to be conflict between sales and CS. And I think the conflict arises based on how the interactions between the teams are structured and the systems that are built around the teams, like what metrics they care about, et cetera.

And, so Typeform, as you mentioned, I ran both sales [00:01:00] and CS, and I was able to control that and make sure that the sales team was incentivized, not just based on closing a deal, but making sure that the deal that they close was still paying several months later. and that made sure that they were, was alignment between sales, where they closed the deal.

They're not just trying to hand off and move on. They're making sure that the customer that they closed is taken care of well and set up for success. And obviously in collaboration with customer success and at notion, the way we did it is, the sales team is responsible for obviously closing the deals and also responsible for the expansion revenue.

And the customer success team is responsible for generating those expansion opportunities. So the same way that marketing will have like a MQL marketing qualified leads that they hand over to sales. And in customer success, we have this concept of customer success, qualified leads, where we're working with an account, [00:02:00] helping build that.

We'll help them make them successful and hopefully expanding them. And then once we've generated that expansion opportunity, we hand it over to sales. so there's a lot of positive collaborations where we're all working towards the same goal rather than what happens in some cases where it becomes a little territorial and it's that's my customer.

I want to keep them, or that's my revenue. I should get the commission on that. And, so I think really it's about building the right systems, to make sure that the teams.

Andrew Michael: [00:02:25] Yeah, very interesting. The customer success, qualified lead, concept as well is the idea as well for success, not to be involved in sales, to protect the relationship that they have with their customers.

So to make it less of a transactional nature and relationship and more about making sure they get good adoption that they're using the tool, getting the most out of it. And then when they are, can hand them over to somebody to do the closing.

David Apple: [00:02:49] Yeah, precisely. So the customer success team, When they're when the sales team is selling to a new customer and they're explaining what a CSM will do for them.

they can say that the [00:03:00] CSM has no incentive and actually, like not commission, there's no variable to the CSMs comp. At which is true, and that makes the CSM just fully aligned on making the customer successful. And that's the metrics that we're working off of rather than CSMs that are constant expansion, where the relationship, there's not a full, like trusting consultants, that's there for the customer. so yeah, that's definitely part of it.

Andrew Michael: [00:03:26] Nice. I'm also interested. So then Israel are lacking the parallels and the differences that between the two companies of Typeform and notion. And in my mind, like the way I see it as well is they're the types of customers that you have potentially in both types of business would differ like who, the ideal customer profiles, the use cases.

I think we discussed this as well previously, but, with Typeform, I think maybe you get a lot more once-off use cases where. With at notion. It's more once you get into notion it's vested and then it becomes your source of reference and like your operating system for the company. So [00:04:00] the, I think churn and retention definitely, would, assume that it's vastly different in terms of nature of, Talking about benchmarking, which I think is the worst thing to do when it comes to and attention. But I think comparing the two types of businesses and the two use cases in the way that the product is used and consumed, that would be vastly different. And then I'm assuming as well, then the customer success and the way they operate is also completely different.

am I getting this wrong? Or is this something that you see yourself and the way that you operate both teams differently?

David Apple: [00:04:29] it's a good question. and you're pretty much spot on, I guess one of the big similarities between Typeform and notion. I think one of the reasons I was recruited to notion is that, they're both very horizontal products where there's some depth to it in the sense that, it's easy to, it's easy to get, to start using notion.

And yeah, it's easy to start creating a basic form survey in type form, but there are very advanced, use cases that you can do, and you can go quite deep in the product, but also we, there's a lot of different personas that can use notion [00:05:00] and a lot of different personas that can use Typeform.

And the use cases for each persona are going to be quite different. So from a customer success perspective, and also from a sales perspective, just selling to one persona and selling one or two or three use cases it's literally selling and making successful. A very broad range of, of different profiles and also, there's quite a bit of depth.

And so that's, that's part of what was very appealing to me at notion is I think there's a lot of value to bring from the customer success perspective just as there was a type form and, helping people discover new use cases that they hadn't thought of, and also helping them get deeper in the product.

Andrew Michael: [00:05:38] Yeah, I found that. Very interesting. Sorry, you cut you there.

David Apple: [00:05:41] Thanks though. Sorry. So I was going to say that, that's like the biggest similarity between the two, products, as you mentioned, one of the big differences is just the frequency of use and use cases. So a Typeform, we never looked at daily active users.

It's not a relevant metric for Typeform because you don't need to log into Typeform every day of course some [00:06:00] people do, but it's not the most telling metric. Whereas in notion people live in notion. In fact, when I was at Typeform, I also lived in notion because we use notion that type form.

And, and so yeah, so the, type form, the frequency of usage was not necessarily a great leading indicator to retention, whereas a notion it's probably one of the best leading indicators of how healthy one of our accounts are.

Andrew Michael: [00:06:24] That's interesting. So really like you're obviously the retention man trick then is based off the frequency of usage and just between the two products, like the area that you focus to first, completely based on the user's natural usage behavior.

I think this is something as well. Sometimes we often try to over optimize for, and we try to say, okay, like we need to get them to be doing. things more, but if you're doing that outside of your natural frequency, that's never going to work and it's going to be a waste of effort and time. if somebody has not got that pain or that needed that moment in time, nothing you do to try and prompt them or promote them is going to get them back in.

David Apple: [00:06:58] Yeah, I think [00:07:00] there's, I think that's true. In most instances, I think one thing that I learned at Typeform was, while the frequency of usage was not a good leading indicator. the best leading indicator yeah. To retention was the number of use cases people, use Typeform for. And I believe that's also, we don't have the data on it yet, but I believe that's also a good leading indicator for notion.

And therefore the goal was not necessarily to get you to log in more frequently. But the goal was to inspire people to do more than they initially signed up to do.

Andrew Michael: [00:07:31] Yep. This was actually going to be my next question, just because I think like one of the accent ways of increasing retention is always to find it an expand use cases for your customer.

And a lot of times somebody who comes to your product today has a specific problem today, a year from now that problem changes and their needs change, and being able to. Transition them into different use cases and educate them on better ways and new ways to use the product is always going to be an excellent way to keep them hooked.

So I'm interested in [00:08:00] this because you meant to mention both programs pretty horizontal, and there's like almost limitless amounts of ways that the products can be used and for different use cases. So how did you as a customer success? Tim, starts by trying to figure out which areas were going to be best to focus on which personas, which use cases.

and maybe just starting at top form. Cause I think that's probably one of the more challenging areas, but, there's literally so many different ways you can use forms. Like how did you go about figuring this out as a CS team and as a company as well?

David Apple: [00:08:30] Yeah. Yeah. great question. I can share, our approach with both companies, but as you suggested, I can start with type form.

so the way we went about it was actually, a very data driven approach. So what we did is we. We first segmented our customers and put them into buckets based on, what their retention rate was. So we, anybody who turned within the first three months, which was actually when most of our turn occurred, we could, we put in a bucket called the one-offs, [00:09:00] anybody who turned between three months in a year.

We called them casual. Anybody who stuck around for more than a year, we called them sticky. And then once we have customers like historic data about customers who turned during different times in those buckets, we were able to look at what was the, what were the behaviors, right? These types of customers did differently from one another and start determining what behaviors we want to make sure that we're driving.

It's a, what features they're using or combination of features they're using, or what's the repetitive behavior. Like I mentioned, creating more and more type forms, with the best leading indicators to retention. So that was one thing in terms of driving behavior. And the other thing was, based on those buckets, we can start.

Creating ideal customer profiles. So we would look at a company, a customer who signs up from a certain company size or a certain department, or with a certain use case. How likely are they to fall in each of those buckets? And basically what [00:10:00] profile is most likely to be sticky vs casual versus one-off.

And what we realized is a lot of times people come in with already their idea in mind that they're just going to do a one off use case. They come in to create a survey and they only have a survey that they have to run once a year. that's a lot harder customer to retain and ultimately less valuable customer to acquire.

Then the customers who are using us as a, be it like a contact form or something like that is a more ongoing use case. I'll pause. There does all that make sense.

Andrew Michael: [00:10:32] Yup. It does. and then from there, what did it look like? So you started out really quantitatively. I like as well as the buckets, like you mentioned the first three months or what was it? 90 days and then beyond, but really segmenting those from that I'm assuming is, are then you mentioned like the ideal customer profile, being somebody who was a sticky and looking at the use case and behaviors, what did you do? With that information then as a customer success team, like [00:11:00] how did you act on this, within the company, did this mean product changes?

Did this mean, different ways that you onboarded customers, or did you have any sort of special treatment that you gave specific types of customers that came through?

David Apple: [00:11:13] Great question all of the above. The first thing that we did is, created a different experience for different profiles of customers.

So we knew that, because we also had a churn survey and we learned that people who churned, tended to be happy with the product, but they turned because they didn't have another use case. So our job was to figure out how do we inspire people to do the next use case? And the next use case, just sending a generic email about these are the things you can do with type form.

It's obviously going to be different use cases. If you're in a marketing team versus a customer success team versus a product team. So what we started doing is tailoring those, those messages to the persona and also making sure that we were engaging with them at the right time, because we found that if we tried to inspire them to do.

[00:12:00] Another use case before they even completed their initial use case. they're not particularly interested in discovering more, whereas what, when they were successful with their first use case, that was the best time to engage with them and suggest the next use case. So the way we did that, as we looked at, how frequently they're collecting results in their type form.

And as we saw the rate of collecting responses decline, that's when we would engage with them and suggest the next use case.

Andrew Michael: [00:12:27] Yeah, I love that insight. Like how did you come to that as well?

David Apple: [00:12:30] trial and error is the, we had, experimentation culture in our team where we like anybody who had an idea could just try to run with it.

And we try to see what the outcome was. The first thing we did was actually the generic email of, we had a. A blog post of 21 ways Typeform uses type form. And we started sharing that with people. And then when we saw that was actually helping, yeah, I think we saw an 18% of my memory serves me 18% uplift in people creating another type [00:13:00] form, that received that email when we AB tested it. and then we started tailoring it to the specific personas. So that was our. Or flow.

Andrew Michael: [00:13:09] Very quiet. I think interesting as well, the point that you made that the timing is really important because I think this is a lot of times we see mistakes made is like you sign up for product and immediately you sign up, you get prompted with a message to invite your colleagues or team members.

And this is like one of those cases where it's typically just a very bad time to do it. A lot of times, like you're asking somebody to share their social capital within an organization before they've even made sure that this is a good product for them and themselves. And just like making sure you focus the right timing, That could be when they get their first success or when rates are high moments, like success is better shared together is just a much better point in time to do these things. So I think a lot of times, like we look at data, but then really thinking through like their qualitative experience is so important to understand like when is going to be a good time for this person to [00:14:00] take the next section and not when I think it is, but really when it's going to be the best time for it,

David Apple: [00:14:05] and to your point. Sooner is not always better. it's more based on their behavior. What's the right timing for it. So I agree with you.

Andrew Michael: [00:14:13] Exactly. And the next thing I want to ask, as well as from a customer success perspective, I think like both companies must have huge numbers of customers. and I think as well, that even now it's a notion like growing so fast, Is your customer success that you focus on, like predominantly self-serve or do you also have a high touch model that you introduced for specific customers?

David Apple: [00:14:38] Yeah, that's a great question. This is one of the big differences between a type form, a notion in my experience there. so at Typeform, we were very deliberately focusing on SMBs.

And therefore there was little appetite to go up market and build the features that we needed to go up market, like single sign on and et cetera. And [00:15:00] therefore our initial approach was everything needed to be scalable. And we built the low touch and tech touch before we built the high touch function. At notion it's literally maybe the opposite in the sense that. we're fortunate notion to not have a retention problem. We actually have, over a hundred percent net retention across the business and the opportunity was more. We have, several, like at the beginning, we only had several. Now we have many customers with over a thousand seats.

And so the goal there was how do we, help those customers be more successful? How do we acquire more customers like that? And how do we convert the customers that are the potential to, to grow wall-to-wall and to have, thousands of seats, how do we help them along that journey? So from that perspective at notion, and we started with high touch and that's still where we are today, we haven't yet started going Downmarket to the low touch and tech touch. and we were [00:16:00] doing everything, high touch with our largest enterprise customers.

Andrew Michael: [00:16:04] Interesting. And how does that scale though, then as well as one question that I had in mind?

David Apple: [00:16:09] Yeah. the great question. So I think there's two aspects to the scaling of it.

One is, we do want to scale our high touch. And that's with the right tooling and the right processes, which we're putting in place. And, the other aspect of scaling it is how do we take the learnings from the engagement that we've had with them, high touch customers, and then scale that and low touch and the approach there is basically taking our customer journey.

Breaking it down into the stages of onboarding adoption, renewal expansion, et cetera. And for each stage determining what the success look like for our customers at that stage. And then based on that, what touch points do we want to have with their customers? And then when we have those touch points right now, we're having them one to one with our customers through that we'll learn which touch points are helpful, which [00:17:00] ones are less helpful, helps to best communicate the value of certain things, names to customers.

And then we'll take those learnings and make them one to many. So then. Convert that one-to-one conversation into an email or a webinar or a video, something like that, and make that one too many. So that's the strategy that were falling in notion.

Andrew Michael: [00:17:20] Interesting. so then I can imagine as well, like for the two businesses when it comes to, like the average revenue per account, this is I'm making an assumption yet, but probably vastly difference between the two.

is that correct? And this is also maybe one of the areas why you can afford to spend a bit more time on the high touch side, even though you have a low price for both in the starting entry points. I'm assuming that over time, like you say, with a net negative, churn and, like growing seeds, like having customers up to a thousand, it probably looks vastly different. The two businesses with the customers.

David Apple: [00:17:53] Yeah, exactly. the overall average, revenue per customer is not necessarily that different, but the [00:18:00] segment that we're focused on in customer success is, I notion is a lot higher, which allows us to justify, as you said, the kind of white glove treatment we offer them.

Andrew Michael: [00:18:10] Yeah, it's very interesting. I think this perspective, like from a go to market strategy as well, thinking through like how you price and package the product, because seemingly at the surface, I think both products, that look cheap, To get started. but from like expansion, I guess from that perspective, there's a lot clearer path for you to have an expansion where it really scales as the organization and company size grows where I'm not sure it's the same scenario at Typeform we're pricing.

It doesn't scale as large as the company grows. And it probably was maybe a lot harder to expand revenue from an existing customer type form, as opposed to notion where it's like just natural that's. The larger the company, the more seats they bring on the bigger the business grows. Yeah.

David Apple: [00:18:57] and that's, that's right. Basically your rights. [00:19:00] And that's basically a function of what industry these different products are in. for Typeform, we did see some large accounts and we did have a high touch team. It was just a little bit smaller, relatively speaking. and that's. Largely because, there wasn't that much value at the time in adding another seat.

So a lot of what we saw, actually a lot of more than what we would've liked and it went against our terms of service, but, we saw a lot of people just sharing logins because there wasn't, like I said, there wasn't that much value and. I'm paying for an extra seat. Whereas notion being a productivity tool, everybody should have their own login and their own content and everything. And therefore there is actually a lot of value in having, each employee has their own seat.

Andrew Michael: [00:19:44] Yeah. And that's interesting. I think also as well, like the two parallels, like a lot of similarities that they share, but then, and you don't have to hear any specific figures or tell me if you don't want to answer this question, but when it comes to customer acquisition costs as well, then was it.

[00:20:00] Quite different in terms of the cost to acquire a signup and a customer for the two businesses being that the one becomes like the center operating system business and the other, one's more of there's ones with use cases and more frequency. Do you see a big difference on that side?

David Apple: [00:20:14] so actually what's interesting is neither both type form and notion, waited, a lot longer than most businesses to invest in a single dollar in customer acquisition, outside of like a sales team. Oh. And the reason for that is both products. I have an inherent viral loop. Yeah. And, and that was basically the main driver of acquisition, both for both of these products. I can't really comment on that. I don't actually know the figures to be perfectly honest,

Andrew Michael: [00:20:41] but that makes sense as well. We've actually, we've hosted a Pedro before, as well, whose growth type from the early days. And we talked a lot about that in one of the early episodes around, the growth and the viral loop, the Typeform had as well.

but interesting, like you said, that both of them really didn't spend much on page to begin with [00:21:00] and, leveraged that viral component . Nice. So what's one thing, like when it comes to turn and retention, that, today that you didn't know before getting started at Typeform and notion that you think like you wish you'd known when you got started.

David Apple: [00:21:15] I guess two things come to mind. the first one is so before becoming a charge, customer success, my career had been saved and I was used to owning a number and, my performance was based on. Achieving or surpassing that number and switching your customer success. I was excited to have turned, be my number, cause it was a big, important metric for Typeform and, and me being the owner of churn for a while, helped motivate me and motivate my team.

But, Eventually, what we realized is that there's a lot of aspects of churn that a customer success team or a customer support team, or et cetera, can't control. are we bringing in the right customers? As I mentioned before, [00:22:00] like with the ideal customer profile and do we have the right product for.

The customers that we're bringing in. And ultimately I think that me owning churn actually ended up shooting me in the foot because when I wanted to get cross-functional projects prioritized or get features prioritized, It was really hard to get other teams to prioritize it. When, it wasn't one of their metrics that they were meant to care about.

And so what we ended up doing is making we switched that. So turned became a company wide metric. I created a turn taskforce, that was cross functional and, and we discussed. How important churn was not just as like a churn in and of itself, but also because of a viral loop, how much viral loop do we lose each time someone should.

how does sure and affect our LTV to CAC ratio, which ultimately, affects like how much we can invest in acquisition and how much of them it's our growth in general. And that really made turn, important to everybody. And we were [00:23:00] able to make, more progress together than I could have ever made on my own with just like my function.

Andrew Michael: [00:23:06] In customer success. Yeah. I think this is a mistake. Like we are here quite a lot and obviously most of the fastest growing companies I speak to, they all have this realization that. Churn, shouldn't be owned by a single team and a it's really like you have a subscription business and if people are canceling their subscription, you don't have a business.

So it's really, it should be a metric that everybody cares about and, interesting as well that you went through that education process as well. Cause I think there's something similar we did at Hotjar was, really trying to educate the whole team on what churn and retention is and why it's important.

And. What their specific role has to do with it. Cause I think a lot of the times, like when you have high level metrics like this and you're reporting at a company level, like people feel detached from them. Cause it's quite difficult to see a Kellogg. What does my role have to do with this metric? Like how do I actually influences?

And a lot of times just having a simple, really good education, like you said, [00:24:00] like I'm discussing how this impacts the viral loop, how it impacts the LTV to CAC ratio and then giving maybe specific examples, teach team member of The roles and jobs that you do, how it impacts churn and retention.

I think that's is it tipping and changing point in a company to get everybody behind it, but interesting. And now how do you see it as a notion? Is it some of the mindset that you have there now that you brought with you? Or I think you mentioned earlier as well, like churn I'm in, retention's not probably a high priority at this point in time, but how do you say that?

David Apple: [00:24:31] Yeah. It, at night we have a more holistic approach to it. so more along the lines of yeah, where we ended up at Typeform. but given our growth rates and given the fact that our or our net retention is above 100% or we have negative net churn, it hasn't been a focus point. We did see, recently with COVID a slight increase in churn and contractions, and we didn't do an analysis, which again, I did [00:25:00] lead, but it wasn't, my team wasn't expected to solve the problem on our own, where it was reaching out to customers who turned with 10 seats or more, and trying to understand what happened and trying to get on a call with them.

And actually our founders joined a few of those calls to learn as well. And, and what we found was a lot of that churn was actually what we would consider, unavoidable in the sense that it was a COVID driven and it was either COVID driven or we also launched, a free nonprofits, and plan. And actually a lot of our customers turned out to be nonprofits that switched to that.

And our Stripe, like our billing systems saw them as churn because they went from a page to a free plan.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think is all from their perspective, like I think covert itself spoke about this quite a bit, but it just accelerated the inevitable for a lot of companies and a lot of businesses.

So if you had a trend problem before, like just, A, COVID just highlighted that and relates to gut. but I think in your case, it's something [00:26:00] different from what you're describing as well. It was really just a matter of something that was unavoidable. Maybe companies just weren't no longer in function and that's not the thing.

I think this is something we talk about as well in an episode with Emmerich, where he talked about the concept of segmenting churn that you can control versus con control.

Cause all the times like when teams work on churn, they go off and say, okay, our turn is 5%, 10%, whatever the number is, and they try to set. Targets against that number without even realizing what's within their control. And what's not so doing a good exercise of just saying, okay, 50% of our churn comes from businesses shutting down.

there's nothing we're going to do as a company to help these businesses from shutting down. unless that's your business, but, that's probably an unrealistic to say that, then you're going to go and reduce churn by 50% because you've basically just got to solve everything then. So yeah,

we, we had the same approach at Typeform. we, it's often hard to. automatically qualify as an account yeah. Is [00:27:00] destined to churn or if they churn because of something else. But, we saw SASS talk, which is a big conference and I happen to know them quite well. they had their conference at the beginning just once a year, and they used Typeform for a specific aspect of their conference.

And so in between the conferences, of course, they're going to churn and it wouldn't make sense for them to keep paying. And yet it still counts as the churn, but really it's just. They're pausing their payments until the next event when they intended to use them again. yeah, I think what I also heard of some people used to, is if people turn within the first month, they attribute that as a failed trial, rather than churn.

And I thought that was an interesting approach. I, at first I was like, that's cheating because that would make sense. Yeah. Yeah. but ultimately, it's because it's obviously they didn't get the value that they were hoping out of the product. And so they tried it, they paid and they didn't get the value and [00:28:00] they churned as opposed, which is a very different type of turn than someone who's been using your product for, six, nine, 12 months, and then turns.

Andrew Michael: [00:28:08] Absolutely. And there's different ways you go about that. Trying to solve the two as well. Exactly. Yeah. Cool. I see we're running up on time. so there's one question I ask every guest that joins the show. let's imagine a hypothetical scenario now that you're joining your company and churn and retention's not doing great at this company.

And, you've been asked by the CEO to try and turn things around for them. But you only have 90 days to try and prove yourself and get some results. What would you want to do with those first 90 days?

David Apple: [00:28:40] I would certainly start by speaking with customers. I would want to speak with customers who didn't churn and I would want to speak with customers who did churn and probably I would want to speak with new customers to understand, what.

How they would define success with our tool and track of if they're achieving that. but yeah, obviously that depends if they're [00:29:00] getting value within 90 days or not, which I, you would hope so. so the first thing would be speaking to customers to understand what's going on because I think just looking at data, doesn't tell the whole story.

that said, then I would look at data and look at, we know what behaviors, the best customers are doing. As I mentioned, we did a type form where, segment them and see what behaviors are driving retention and what lack of behaviors may be are driving churn. and then I guess a ticket from there, but I think, there's no silver bullet as we discussed previously, but there's no silver bullet.

And this is the way to reduce churn for company Acme that is a hypothetical company. I really think that, you need to speak to customers. You need to understand your industry, your product, their, your customer's desired outcomes with your product. And only then can you really figure out like what you need to solve for? So for me, it would just be. Speak to your customers

Andrew Michael: [00:29:58] yeah. [00:30:00] I think really starting with diagnosing and understanding the problem like the chew through, and there's no silver bullets to solving it. And it's really many different ways. I didn't realize that Acme was a made up company as well.

One of those ones used everywhere. nice. so yeah, debit. it's been a pleasure chatting with you today. is there any sort of final thoughts you want to leave the audience with before we drop off? Like how can they keep up to speed with each working on anything they should be aware of?

David Apple: [00:30:32] No, nothing in particular comes to mind. Thanks. yeah, I just, became a dad, three months ago.

Andrew Michael: [00:30:37] Congratulations again,

David Apple: [00:30:39] thanks. Thanks. So this is, my first kind of public, thing in a while. And, Going to be investing probably less time than I used to in writing blog posts or sharing stuff.

But, but I do have a Twitter account where I retweet things that I like, so feel free to follow me there, but, yeah, I probably won't be particularly active, over the next few months.

Andrew Michael: [00:30:59] Thanks [00:31:00] honored that you joined the show then in that case as well, that's a lot of, it's an exciting time differently for you now having your one self as well.

I have a 13 month old baby and just each and every single day they get cuter on each and every single day they do more. And like you wonder to yourself, like this is really amazing. Can you love them anymore each day? So you don't put in times ahead.

David Apple: [00:31:21] You're spot on. Yeah, we get w that's a whole other podcast episode.

Yeah. But, yeah. thanks. Thanks a lot for having me. It was a pleasure.

Andrew Michael: [00:31:32] Thank you. And best of luck going forward.

David Apple: [00:31:34] Cheers.


David Apple
David Apple

The show

My name is Andrew Michael and I started CHURN.FM, as I was tired of hearing stories about some magical silver bullet that solved churn for company X.

In this podcast, you will hear from founders and subscription economy pros working in product, marketing, customer success, support, and operations roles across different stages of company growth, who are taking a systematic approach to increase retention and engagement within their organizations.


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