Dan Burcaw (Nami ML) - Unique churn challenges for mobile subscription businesses and how to tackle them.

Dan Burcaw


Co-Founder and CEO


Nami ML
Dan Burcaw
Dan Burcaw

Episode Summary

Today on the show we have Dan Burcaw, co-founder and CEO of Nami ML.

In this episode, we talked about what drove Dan to build Nami ML, the unique involuntary churn scenarios with mobile apps on iTunes and Google Play stores.

We also discussed the different risks and concerns that companies like Spotify and Netflix might face by charging their customers outside the mobile app ecosystem, and what role churn and retention played during the acquisition of Dan’s previous company. 

Mentioned Resources



What is Nami ML and what drove Dan to build it. 00:02:28
How Nami ML helps mobile-first subscription business with churn. 00:04:05
Unique mobile involuntary churn scenarios and how Nami helps businesses reduce it. 00:09:30
What are the risks and concerns for companies like Spotify and Netflix charging their customers outside the mobile app ecosystem? 00:14:30
What part did churn and retention play pre Push IO’s acquisition and post-acquisition? 00:18:54
How would Dan reduce churn and increase retention for a company in just 90 days. 00:24:19
What's one thing Dan knows about churn and retention today that he wished he knew when he got started with her career. 00:24:19


Andrew Michael: [00:00:00] Hey, Dan. Welcome to the show.

Dan Burcaw: [00:00:02] Hey, thanks for having me.

Andrew Michael: [00:00:04] It's a pleasure for the listeners. Dan is the CEO and co-founder of NAMI ML, a service that helps you launch scale and automate your mobile subscription business. Prior to NAMI ML. Dan was the founder of double Encore, which was acquired by WPP and push IO, which was acquired by Oracle's

Dan Burcaw: [00:00:20] responses.

Andrew Michael: [00:00:21] He then went on to serve as a senior director of product management and article after the acquisition.

So my first question for you, Dan is. What does NAMI ML doing a little more detail and what drove you to start the company?

Dan Burcaw: [00:00:35] Yeah. I'll take it I'll take your question  reverse order.  Sold our company push IO at Oracle and became part of the Oracle marketing cloud.

So push IO was a push notification service and we became the engine for of the mobile channel, the Oracle marketing cloud. One of the things that we learned there was that Marketers who would buy the Oracle marketing cloud would use email marketing and push notifications [00:01:00] as really a giant hammer to solve their their business problems.

So be it trying to drive more sales or trying to fight churn they, that this was the limited tool in their arsenal. So when my co-founder and I of NAMI left Oracle he was also my co-founder of push IO.  We started taking a look at what's going on in the landscape.

And one of the things that have changed since we started push IO, was that the mobile industry in particular was starting to move towards subscriptions. And so mobile was already struggling a lot with a turn problem in terms of not necessarily paid users, but just you acquire users through acquisition campaigns.

Perhaps you've got an audience in your mobile app and you're constantly fighting churn just to keep people in the application. And so then you layer on subscriptions where now, there's real money at stake. And we saw that the problem was even more challenging. And  basically the motivation [00:02:00] to, to start NAMI was there's gotta be a better way to transition mobile businesses to subscriptions where it's much more complex the subscription product life cycle from  Moving people from a free user to a paid user, and then seeing them through renewal over time and then trying to prevent them from churn.

It's just much more complex and it's gets even more.  When you want to sell across a lot of different ecosystems maybe the subscription originates on the app store, or maybe it originates on the web or Google play. And reconciling all of that as well as it's very painful and then building a strategy around how do you try to retain those subscribers?

Is also challenging, especially for a lot of these mobile first.  Apps and businesses that didn't start out as subscription businesses. They've, that's what they're transitioning to. So it's not that they have a lot of built in institutional knowledge around how do you build a subscription business?

So we simply stated, want to be basically a [00:03:00] one-stop service to, to help folks, like you said, launch scale and automate subscription businesses that are mobile first.

Andrew Michael: [00:03:09] Interesting. And this came out of your insight as well, working over at our recall, having been acquired at push IO.

What are some of the ways that you're helping customers tackle trend and retention then you said, obviously I a hundred percent agrees in like the mobile space. It is a lot more challenging when it comes to retention than other probably particularly other apps desktop and things like that.

So what are some of the ways you're working with companies to help them reduce churn?

Dan Burcaw: [00:03:36] Yeah it we have to take a worldview that is not singularly focused on churn because that's only one part of the funnel.  Part of what we help Startups or large fortune companies or indie developers do is first and foremost, just be more successful in converting users to a subscription.

First step for us is that we [00:04:00] give them tools to market, to app users, like they would market to, other types of users. Except now focused on marketing a subscription versus, just a kind of standard marketing message. So step one is tools to deploy very flexible sort of paywalls.

If you will into an application where you can very much customize what a user is seeing what offer they're getting and really a control of the sale. We think that's really important because if somebody doesn't orig initially convert into something that they understand, or that's a good match for them.

Then on the churn side, you're going to have much more of a challenge. So we help with conversion. And then once somebody is subscribed to do the subscription, then we manage the entire life cycle. So we know when the user's renewed, we know when the user maybe in the case of the Android ecosystem, when they pause their subscription was, which is a unique capability in that.

Ecosystem. We know when they [00:05:00] enter something called grace period, which a lot of these platforms support, which is when it's time to renew, if the credit card failed to charge for some reason these modern platforms now have grace period, so that you don't have involuntary churn.

And so we help our customers know number one, that they, Hey, here's your cohort of users that are in, for example, grace period. But then we give them the tools to actually message those users, either directly in the application using our software, or we can even enrich that intelligence into their other parts of their ecosystem.

So if they're using a CDP platform, for example, data about what's happening with the subscription enriches all sorts of other systems. So they could maybe even send back the email marketing and they could send an email meshes just to tell somebody to update their credit card information which is going to be an email that's much, hopefully much more likely be well received by the user than just some general purpose blast.

[00:06:00] Andrew Michael: [00:06:00] Absolutely connecting to CDP as well, then gives you access to other channels, like potentially retargeting ads through different social channels and trying to win back customers that way. So the thing is, while you mentioned in terms of like involuntary churn being one of these things, and I think this is one of the things we haven't talked a whole lot about on the show when it comes to involuntary churn on mobile.

And just before the show we were chatting and you mentioned a couple of things related to it that there are unique scenarios when it comes to mobile, involuntary churn. Maybe you can talk us through some of those and how you're helping companies reduce that involuntary churn.

Dan Burcaw: [00:06:36] Yeah. Yeah. So the thing is if you have a subscription business that is, is originating sales, so to speak or originating subs through mobile through the app store or the Google play through Roku through any of these other sort of points sales channels Then one of the things that implies is that you are one step removed from the credit card [00:07:00] processing kind of the record around the transaction.

So what happens is that let's say, Apple tries to process a renewal for one of your end users subscribers to subscribe through the app store. And that fails. In the, just a few years ago, what would happen is that would create an involuntary churn event right away. And and one of the challenges of course, was that you didn't really know that was involuntary churn versus voluntary churn.

There wasn't a good sort of separation of concerns. So you as the kind of app publisher just saw it as a big bucket of churn When that began to change was that Apple, Google play led the charge on introducing some features around grace period creating grace periods around these subscriptions.

So what happens is that. If somebody's credit card fails on the renewal then those ecosystems will try again for a period of time. And that, that period is different for each platform, but if [00:08:00] the reasonable amount of time and there's some Yeah, strong data that shows that there's a non insignificant amount of revenue rep potential revenue loss that you can avoid by simply having the time to a know that, Hey, here's all of your users that are in grace period at this moment.

So then you can then start to use your other. Techniques to try to get them to cure the problem and curing the problem is just simply going into the app store. Let's say updating the credit card information, and then that's it. Once it's updated the app store, we will, we'll immediately start to try to process a renewal again.

And if it's successful, then the user is no longer in grace period. And you're off to the races for another month, if that's the period or whatever the renewal term is.  Part of the thing about these new capabilities is that you have to take advantage of it, just because the ecosystems offer this doesn't mean that it's. But you get it for free. You [00:09:00] have to recognize the signals from them that somebody entered grace period. You have to then know what to do with that. And there's a number of things that you want to do, including messaging the user in the application that they're in grace period.

Maybe sending them an email, in, in, in kind of a. Focused effort on getting them to cure the problem. So that's one area where a, just a few years ago, app publishers didn't even know that they've really had an involuntary churn problem because it wasn't exposed at them through these ecosystems.

Andrew Michael: [00:09:32] Yeah, and this is something we have talked about, like involuntary churn outside of the mobile app space. And typically as well, like with companies, researchers are done in a period where they try and recharge the credit card a couple of times, two, three times during a period of maybe 15 days before actually canceling the final subscription.

Do any of these app platforms have any sort of in period within it. And do you have the capability as a mobile app [00:10:00] developer to take advantage of those, the timing of those retries?

Dan Burcaw: [00:10:04] No, you don't really know control the retries, but yeah, that does that those mechanisms are there, the app store and Google play have their own sort of.

Standard retry periods that they document. So it's not a, it's not a secret, but it's also not totally aligned. And that's where back to the origin story of the company is that we're trying to make all of this just a lot easier. And, imagine if you shift on the app store first and then built an implementation, that was Do interface with the app store that made assumptions about their grace period and Dunning retry set of rules, so to speak.

And then you went to launch on Google play and the set of rules are slightly different. And if you, depending on how you, if you try to do this all yourself, then. It might be in a situation where you don't have the flexibility to adapt to those platforms, specific nuances. And so that's one of the values of what we [00:11:00] do is we just, we abstract away all the platforms, specific concerns and then Express it to you, the app publisher in just a singular set of language around, Hey, this is a user that's in grace period.

W will we notify you the moment that happens? We can enrich your CDP, like I mentioned earlier. And so then you can take action in the moment that, that event takes place where you don't get a lot of visibility into is, how much is each time the platform retries?

It's not like we get an extra signal from Apple that says, Hey, we tried try to retry again, just so you know, it didn't work or right. All we know is that the users in the grace period there is one specific nuance on Android. And again, back to the, these platforms specific dis Differences Android and Google play is that if.

After that period of retry the user still hasn't corrected their billing information. Then they go into something that's unique to that ecosystem called an account hold and an account hold means you no longer have access [00:12:00] to the subscription, but it's still is a Mo a window of time where there's an opportunity for the user to correct before they're churned.

Out of the subscription entirely. So it's almost like a two-stage process that, that buys the publisher, really a lot of time to hopefully help get the user to address the issue.

Andrew Michael: [00:12:21] Yeah, it's interesting. So as you're going through, different platforms have become more and more complex, in terms of how you manage this Dunning system, trying to get it right for everyone.

The one thing I'm interested in, I probably already know the answer and I really like to stay away from benchmarks on the show. But do you see any difference in churn rates across the different platforms? Is there any one that stands out above the rest? Is there sort of anyone that is generally has high retention?

Dan Burcaw: [00:12:50] So between Apple and Google it's not too dissimilar in part because they've got similar techniques in place to, to deal with this. It hasn't [00:13:00] always been that way. Apple had grace period first and the Google followed. But now that they essentially are on part it is pretty similar.

However where it's a little bit different is on the acquisi or the conversion side. Because. In the Apple ecosystem, users are just much more conditioned. Maybe conditions is not the quite the right word, but from a behavioral perspective, users on the app store are more willing to pay for things.

So for example on the. I think the current number, the last time I looked of apps across the Apple and and Google play that our support monetized solely through ads, I think at somewhere in the neighborhood. Don't totally Hold me to this, but it's somewhere in the neighborhood of around 2 million apps that are monetized solely through ads.

But if you break that down further, what you w what is that actually, like 1.2 million of those are Google play. So there's just much more focus on the kind of ad monetization strategy there. So while they have these [00:14:00] tools on Google play fewer apps are monetizing through subscriptions, at least so far, that being said yeah.

It's, it is starting to change. It's just a lagging indicator as to on Google play. It's lagging, Google lagging the app store, but it but the number of absolute subscriptions on Google play is indeed growing. Back to your original question, I don't see a lot of difference in the benchmark around around churn.

Once somebody is in a subscription between the two platforms.

Andrew Michael: [00:14:27] Yeah, but I definitely think, like you said as well, like people are conditioned. I think that is a good way to phrase it in terms of pain when it comes to Apple. So it's interesting, like  what you mentioned roughly like 60% of Google play is driven by ad revenue as opposed to 40% on Apple.

But the other thing I was interested in as well, when it comes to subscriptions and the mobile space is some companies we see as well, find a way outside of. The ecosystem of Apple or a Google to charge for their subscription service. And I think [00:15:00] Spotify is one that comes to mind for me. Like I think I originally signed up for Spotify on the desktop and my subscription gets charged off the card every month.

Like, how do you see this being treated when it comes to churn and retention overall, but just generally in the mobile app space, like how a are companies going around this and what are some of the risks or concerns with doing so.

Dan Burcaw: [00:15:23] Yeah. So the reasons one might want to sell direct is that you right, are cutting out the quote unquote middle platforms and you don't have to pay the commissions to the platforms.

It works really well if you're a super large brand right now, Netflix does it as well. And, but everybody knows what Netflix is. So they have a, an ability to. To be out there and market who they are. And if people want Netflix, then they sign up for a trial. And if they like Netflix after the trial, then they keep going.

So it's pretty simple. Unfortunately for a lot of brands though, they don't [00:16:00] have  the cloud to be able to solely rely on their own direct channel. So then they have to figure out what is the right? How do they strike the right balance between originating subscribers inside of these ecosystems and direct And one of the challenges actually that's related to that is if they ever want to, let's say they originate somebody from the app store.

But over time they want that user to become a known, not just an anonymous subscriber, but a known subscriber. Then they have to have a registration flow in the, their application so that they can put a name to that person that otherwise it's just transacting anonymously. So that's something they have to start to think about.

And then the other thing is that that is a real challenge for brands. Is that regardless of where they. And up in this journey because it is a journey, right? Netflix didn't start and say, Hey, we're just going to sell direct Shopify, didn't start and say, Hey, we're just going to sell direct. Both of those started [00:17:00] out selling through the channels.

And then over time as they built their businesses, they were able to focus on, on, on direct. And so one of the kind of each challenges that exists is. Ensuring that as you, as a business kind of evolve through that, that, that kind of business life cycle is that, how do you make sure that you're managing.

You're giving the user the best possible experience regardless of where they originated their subscription. So if I originated a Netflix subscription, not on the app store on iOS, when they used to sell through that how does Netflix make sure that they're still giving me a great experience?

Yeah. Even though I didn't buy directly from them, I still want to be their customer and maybe they want to transition me eventually to have a credit card on file with them. But so managing that kind of transition as well as creating that CRM system of record around subscriptions it's a real challenge and there's some brands that do this very.

[00:18:00] Poorly.  And part of it is because you can see in your mind this patchwork of systems, where they have a little system, they stood up to deal with the Apple subscribers and a little system. They set up to deal with the Android subscribers in the system. They stood up that they want to be the kind of key system around their, main subscriber database, but they don't talk to none of them talk to each other.

And  the other thing to relate to this by the way, is that users use these experiences in different. Touchpoints. And so you might sign into Netflix on the web, on mobile, on your Roku, and you kinda just want the experience to work wherever you are. And so this kind of reconciling where the user purchased a subscription with where they want to use it is actually a huge part of the pain that exists out there.

Andrew Michael: [00:18:43] Yeah, it's very interesting. I can see how it can get super complex, but first I think it's also like a good segue in terms of, you mentioned managing the experience across the different platforms. And I want you to talk as well a little bit now about your acquisition. So [00:19:00] you've founded a couple of other companies both of which were acquired.

I wanna focus a little bit more on the articles responses, acquisition of push IO. How did that process look like? And how much was that general attention to part of the initial purchase? And then what did it look like? Post-purchase

Dan Burcaw: [00:19:19] yeah the, so we ended up, so it was. Pretty interesting story.

So push IO was a push notification provider. Oops. On mobile. We we were one of the first players in that space. Founded the company in 2009 and pretty quickly we established ourselves as the go-to provider in a specific sort of set of verticals. And those verticals were, media sports.

Broadcast news basically any vertical where speed of delivery was absolutely the most important metric. So as a concrete example, when a, breaking news push notification needs to go out for [00:20:00] a well-known news broadcaster, right? One of them who was our customer said, Hey guys, if you can't deliver it to an basically an unlimited number of mobile devices, In less than five minutes from when we initiated the breaking news, don't even bother because it's too late.

And so that was the sort of SLA that we were held to as a company.  We had a great customer list, very well-known brands at the kind of peak scale that you might expect. Prior to the acquisition, in that category. So then we were in the process of being acquired by a publicly traded company called responses, which offers an email marketing or offered an email marketing automation solution in the middle of the acquisition Oracle made an offer to buy them.

And then decided they also were happy to keep the acquisition up with us because responses needed a the Oracle marketing cloud, which is what we all ended up being a part of and building needed a [00:21:00] mobile story. And so we ended up being the mobile story for the Oracle marketing cloud, the mobile channel, so to speak.

So one of the things that was so I would say. Turn was a factor in the acquisition. The sense that the acquirers definitely valued the. The blue chip customers that we had in part as credibility, that our technology worked, that we had happy customers that we were operating at a scale.

You can imagine Oracle well is operating at a scale, unlike basically any other company on the planet in many ways. So all of those things were really important, but the Oracle marketing cloud very focused on. Some very different verticals. So e-commerce travel, retail. And that was exciting for us because we knew where we had our strengths.

We knew where responses and the Oracle marketing cloud had strengths from a vertical [00:22:00] perspective. And our hope was that, would just all come together into this really nice, diverse customer base. Of course what ended up. So I think we were hopeful going into it. What ended up happening was that w for a while, post acquisition, and I mentioned this to you before we started recording once taking a step back in terms of  his own kind of retention.

We were really sticky with our customers and Part of the reason was that we were the only game in town when it came to some of these mission critical requirements. And so once they landed on us yeah. Pick the tire assaulted. This technology worked solid. It met these incredibly stringent SLS.

They, they were with us and we did, we had very little churn. And we did have a self-service offering where you're more traditional mix of small, medium, large customers all, all across the board would come in. And what we would see there is that if folks spent the time to drop the SDK into their app and do the [00:23:00] integration and get over that hurdle.

Then they were also quite sticky. If they came into the UI and kick the tires, but didn't take that implementation step of dropping in the SDK.  Then they'd almost certainly churn. So we knew pretty quickly when somebody would sign up whether they were going to make it with us or not active post acquisition.

I think that the thing that we ended up seeing is that the while the technology that you build for kind of mission critical use case is desirable when you want to send, billions and billions of push notifications to these other categories. It's building a very different product when you're sending marketing messages and kind of promotional.

Hi notifications. Those are, that's a very different use case than sending breaking news or sports scores or something that the end user, quite frankly really wants. And so we just, I would say that, that use case difference of a retailer, trying to execute in [00:24:00] a cart abandonment.

Campaign through push notification and the breaking news use case did create some divergence, I would say in the roadmap and where we went with the product that ultimately resulted in some churn of our, what I'll call our legacy customers. I don't mean that in a pejorative way, our legacy customers were fantastic, but.

We did solve it. The PR the product roadmap started diverged a little bit where their interests were no longer sort of the emphasis of what we were working on at the marketing cloud.

Andrew Michael: [00:24:31] And it's interesting. So you're going into sort of the acquisition. You had your ideal customer profile set. You had a product built for them moving into the marketing cloud then that a different set of customers, different set of focal points.

And obviously, like you mentioned, like having different needs and different problems needing to be solved that your solution had to maybe potentially change after a while. W was this not pre-acquisition was this something that was looked at all? Okay. Yes, we do have a variable your user base.

[00:25:00] It was just something that was overlooked and you thought, okay, what we have, because it's super fast because SLA is a super quick it should just transition to any sort of category and work for anybody.

Dan Burcaw: [00:25:10] Yeah.  We knew we had a one gap going in to the acquisition, which was, we had focused on that mission critical engine.

So w our key persona of a buyer was usually a kind of the head of develop a head of a pro head of product or a CIO or  the. CTO group when the, the customer persona post-acquisition was more of the marketing CMO group marketing managers. And so the gap that we knew we had going into the acquisition, which was part of why we wanted to do it was that in order to serve some of those other industry categories much more effort needed to be.

Exposed on kind of campaign management and [00:26:00] analytics and KPIs, and some areas of the product that we hadn't fully fleshed out when we were focused on our set of customers. So that was exciting to be able to flush those pieces out. So it's not that we weren't aware that there were some.

Differences going into the acquisition. I would say that the thing that we, you go into these things and you, when you make a decision to sell your company Yeah. Fortunately, we had a opportunity to make that decision and not do it in a way where it was just going to happen because it needed to happen.

It was an active decision of ours, that it was the right thing to do for our business, for our shareholders and where we wanted to take the company next. And so we were going into it very excited, but through that enthusiasm, what we didn't. Totally forecast was, what happens over the next two, three, four years.

And so I don't know that [00:27:00] looking back at it, I could have done a whole lot differently in terms of ensuring that, that. Customer base that we brought into the fold was well-served. I guess I was probably a little naive to think that we could serve both in the, Oracle audience and the legacy audience at ease with equal measure.

And that probably was a bit naive.

Andrew Michael: [00:27:23] Yeah, you need to end up picking a focal point at some point. And it sounds obviously like the article space it was a much bigger market as well. I'm sure. Going off to that sort of drove that decision. The other thing that I'm just on this is if you had to go back in time, what is one thing that you'd want to do differently?


Dan Burcaw: [00:27:43] It's it's it's a tricky question. We were bootstrapped at push IO for a long time, which limited our ability to, we were investing every customer dollar back into the business. And and so that was great. But on the other hand, it limited the areas that we [00:28:00] could pull.

The red on the product to, flush it out in some of these ways that that we needed to be able to flush it out too. Like you just said, address some of the larger parts of the market or large parts of the market. One, one thing I might go back and do is have con really contemplate.

We, we got to a point where we had, very reasonable recurring revenue and We, we, we might've thought hard about raising money to scale it up.  The challenge that we had was that we were in an industry set where, you know, some of the competitors had raised a lot of money.

I don't know, from day one, a lot of that money was spent to educate the market. So we benefited from that but still, it it felt daunting towards. The time of the acquisition to think about should we go and raise money to take it to the next level? When we,  we wouldn't have just on day one raised every single dollar for dollar that the other players in the space [00:29:00] had raised, for the years and years leading up to that moment.

Yeah, I, but maybe that, maybe the thing that I would have done is thought a little bit harder about raising outside capital sooner, when things were still getting established, because I think that would have given us some other possibilities. But th that being said, we had a fantastic outcome.

Everybody on the team and our shareholders did well. We learned a lot at Oracle, so it's not that. It, it wasn't it wasn't a billion dollar exit, but I'm not sure there was a way for that kind of exit to have even existed going back in time, making some different decisions. Because part of it was what was the maturity of the market that we were.

Operating in and in 2009, this is just one year after the app store launched. We were at the very early part of the kind of mobile maturity model or mobile industry maturity. Now you see folks in the kind of similar [00:30:00] space that are doing so much more volume. And so part of it is that. The market's just way more mature now.

So what a company looks like now and what it needs to raise and what it needs to do in today's mobile is very different from in 2009.

Andrew Michael: [00:30:16] Absolutely timing is critical or these sorts of things. Cool. I see. We're running up on time. I have a couple of questions before we end the show today. One question I ask every guest, let's imagine a hypothetical scenario that you rather than a new company and you have a new job at this company.

And churn and  retention is not doing great this year. It comes to you aslike, we need to turn around things really fast. She says we've got 90 days to

do it. What would you want to be doing with your time in those 90 days to try and make a dent on churn and retention?

Dan Burcaw: [00:30:49] I think the first thing I did at bodily do is try to really dig in and do some customer surveys.  If there was an active. Program, did you do that already? Fantastic. [00:31:00] Dig into that and see what customers are saying. And if that wasn't being done, I try to Institute something. Because of course you're gonna if folks are tepid about your offering, then you're always going to be fighting a churn and retention problem.

And it's going to be really hard to turn that around and in a short amount of time. It seems like that would be the first step to look. For me is what are people actually saying about the product?

Andrew Michael: [00:31:25] And then next follow-up question to this is what's one thing that you know about churn and retention today that you wish you knew when you got started in your career.

Dan Burcaw: [00:31:36] Yeah. It's just it's so much harder than it. Everybody, there's so much focused on focus on the top of the funnel and that, that initial, inversion, it's funny. We talk with our customers about, especially when we talked to them before they even launched their products into the market, they're their new subscription products.

You can just see [00:32:00] how they organize around the launch. Everything's about trying to get to the launch and all the energy, all the effort. And there's not as much, in fact, there's oftentimes very little effort planning strategy being thought through around what happens after we launch?

What do we do then? And so I th I think that this is  related to too. The question and also related to the struggle that is out there is that part of the challenge of churn is that churn and retention is that you're fighting it later than you should be. And it's hard to, it's hard to know that early on, but I think it's,  it's related to the fact that.

So much of the payoff in our world of startups and and companies and business is about like getting the deal done. It's not right. I want to close a new customer. It's not about I want the customer to be successful for the next two years. And every, so all of [00:33:00] these kind of short-term payoffs about, getting the win are on a setting you up to Maybe not be thinking enough about churn and retention when early, when you can actually do something about it.

Versus when it's too late and all you have in your arsenal is push an email and. Whacking people over their head.

Andrew Michael: [00:33:19] I'm very difficult to win back then. Yeah, absolutely. I think when it comes to general attention differently, like growth as an acquisition takes a front seat for the majority of businesses out there.

And ultimately a lot of companies realize too late. Cause I think initially Growth can mosque churn issues as well. And if you're growing really fast you only realize when it's too late often and that you have big trend issues. And we've seen that with many companies that have raised millions of dollars and then crashed and burned only months later to realize that retention just wasn't there.

And they had bigger problems, but Dan, it's been a pleasure chatting to you today, like really appreciate the time. Is there any sort of final thoughts you want to leave the listeners with anything they should be aware [00:34:00] of that you're working on?

Dan Burcaw: [00:34:03] Yeah, so absolutely just we launched actually at the time we're recording this we launched today on product hunt.

Some new features that help app publishers implement mobile subscriptions, even easier with a lot less code because we want to back to what I just said is we want to take a lot of the pressure off that launch stage so that you can focus on. The full life cycle. And  if anybody is out there getting ready to launch a subscription product that as a mobile component to it check us out at namiml.com.

And other than that, we're always writing different blog posts or content pieces on some of these topics. If nothing else we've got a blog. If you're interested in what's going on in the world of mobile as it relates to these things,

Andrew Michael: [00:34:49] very cool. Dan, thanks so much for joining the show today and wish you best of luck now going forward.

Dan Burcaw: [00:34:54] Hey, thank you. I really appreciate.

Andrew Michael: [00:34:56] Cheers.


Dan Burcaw
Dan Burcaw

The show

My name is Andrew Michael and I started CHURN.FM, as I was tired of hearing stories about some magical silver bullet that solved churn for company X.

In this podcast, you will hear from founders and subscription economy pros working in product, marketing, customer success, support, and operations roles across different stages of company growth, who are taking a systematic approach to increase retention and engagement within their organizations.


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