The evolution of focus on net revenue retention

You Mon Tsang


CEO and co-founder


Churn Zero
You Mon Tsang
You Mon Tsang

Episode Summary

Today on the show we have You Mon Tsang, CEO, and co-founder of ChurnZero.

In this episode, You Mon shared his experience building and exiting 3 companies and the lessons he bought with him when starting ChurnZero.

We also touched on his pragmatic approach to entrepreneurship and the naming of his company. We finished off with a discussion on net revenue retention and how the market's perception has changed of this metric over time.

As usual, I'm excited to hear what you think of this episode, and if you have any feedback, I would love to hear from you. You can email me directly at Don't forget to follow us on Twitter.

Mentioned Resources

Churn Zero



Building and selling 3 companies. 00:01:46
The naming of ChurnZero. 00:20:34
90-days to turn churn around. 00:23:02


[00:01:19] Andrew Michael: Hey, You Mon welcome to this. 

[00:01:20] You Mon Tsang: Glad to be here, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:23] Andrew Michael: It's great to have you for the listeners. You Mon is the founder and CEO of churn zero, a customer success platform, helping customer success teams to better understand the customers and reduce churn. You might start out as Korean product management companies like Oracle and Xerox before funding a series of companies where three of them were actually acquired in his last role before founding churn zero, he was the CEO of out-market now known as contact.

So my first question for you in a minute. What keeps driving you just talk to new 


[00:01:51] You Mon Tsang: Starting a new company. I've been thinking about this a lot. Actually. I thought about it really hard before I started touring zero. And the answer is it's boring. It's I [00:02:00] just needed to, that's what I want to do. Andrew, I think maybe you're similar, right? And once you become an entrepreneur really. The whole starting process that creativity around that, the energy around that is something that you want to see over and over again. I, my guess is that there's another couple of new startups in me, before it's all over.

Yeah just this instinct, Andrew. 

[00:02:19] Andrew Michael: Yeah. I think it's that they need to also be creative, at least for me, I think it feels like. Get a lot of joy from starting something from new, trying to problem solve in a space. That's that's interesting. And yeah it's a weird one to explain for myself as well, because now I'm to company four or five and it's 

[00:02:35] You Mon Tsang: why do you get you?

Can't explain it, Andrew, right? Yeah. It's not always, it's not always the best decision, but you got. 

[00:02:41] Andrew Michael: Exactly. And there's times when you like swearing at your son, like, why the hell did I do this again? But then other parts of your you couldn't help it. It's like a nice so talk us a little bit about your background and histories of our, so I mentioned you started out as a project manager, first regional plan association, and then you went to [00:03:00] Oracle and a Xerox.

From there, like what got you to found your first company? What was it like as a product manager at Xerox? You decided now. Okay. And this was 95, 96. I want to start over. 

[00:03:14] You Mon Tsang: Yeah. Yeah. So I started in a totally different sector. I was an urban planner and a great, it was a great job, but I realized that, there are certain jobs where like urban planning, where it takes decades to see the fruits of your.

And then I said, oh I'm too impatient for that. And so that's when I decided to go into technology, right? Because technology is faster moving, things that you do today, you can see an impact the weeks from now. And I actually went and started a company called started at a company called Breo.

Breo was ultimately bought by Oracle. So down the line and I caught the bug, I caught the tech. And then from then, and it never really occurred to me to actually start a company. I grew up as a son, you of immigrants and starting like a restaurant or starting, a small business was always something that I thought I would [00:04:00] do, but starting a tech company felt a little.

Out of my realm. But that was when the internet was really coming along. I had met a great co-founder, a technical co-founder and we really didn't know anything. If we had known what was going on, we wouldn't have started it. I think night Ava tea is a great way to start a company.

And so I learned enough from Breo, they were great entrepreneurs there that, that inspired me to start my first company and my co-founder and I started a company. The Dawn of a, when browsers were coming up Netscape and I E and we built a browser extension and, it was really, once I got that bug, I couldn't get it.

I can turn away. 

[00:04:34] Andrew Michael: And what was that company doing? Exactly. You mentioned it was browser extension. 

[00:04:39] You Mon Tsang: Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to take you back when we used to pay $2 and 95 cents an hour for internet access over over phone lines. And this is by the way, this is the greatest product I ever built.

I now will not build a product better than this super clever. And it was a, basically it was an offline browser. So the middle of the night 3:00 [00:05:00] AM, everybody had one phone line. So you were either on the internet, if you were on the internet, you can take phone calls. If you were taking phone calls, you can be on the internet and you had to pay $2 95 cents.

So expensive and convenient. So our extension would every night. 4:00 AM go out, get on the internet while you were asleep and then download all your subscriptions, to, to all the things that you were reading. So that in the morning it was all cashed on your computer. So one, you didn't have to pay $2 95 cents per hour, right?

You can actually, while you were reading and everything happened really quickly because the internet was super slow then so it was a great product, won all kinds of awards best product a year ago. We ended up selling it to a company called traveling software. Then we actually put it into boxes that was sold at computer software stores that people would buy for 50 bucks and then take it home and install it.

[00:05:47] Andrew Michael: It sounds so weird listening to how this became a business as well today when we know the internet and everything's almost, it's almost become free but definitely these different innovations over Thomas technology has advanced with [00:06:00] businesses. Grew and then became redundant after a while.

It's an interesting trend. 

[00:06:04] You Mon Tsang: I think my lesson from there is, you learn lessons at all your startups, not all your startups and that lesson was really the shift in business model. It was an interesting can hurt any anyone. And you were talking about free and then, so from paid software to free software was a big shift that happened at that time.

That was, Hey, you got to watch out for things like that. So when SAS came along, SAS blew out on prem, that was a huge business model shift. You always have to watch business model shift and who's who knows what's going to happen after SAS right now, we charge per user.

And now everyone, is thinking about, consumption-based models, right? So it's will consumption-based models take over SAS? So I think business model changes is a big thing that you always have to watch out for. 

[00:06:46] Andrew Michael: Yeah, absolutely. And I think SaaS was an extremely big shift and change in the markets and it's where many great businesses now have been born out of at the end of it.

It's all like zero that you can't be building today as well. So listen [00:07:00] one was there. Then you went on, actually went back to premier technology as director of product management lasted a couple of years and then got going again, got the bug next company box. It's what did you do? 

[00:07:12] You Mon Tsang: So box, that was a basically they were creating automated fan sites.

It was a great idea. So all you had to do, this is what we did. There was two of us and there was only two of us. And all we had to do was play. We had to give our machine. So we created a machine learning a website creator. So all you had to do is give it a Wikipedia entry for a popular topic.

Sports teams were often that, so let's just say, here I'm in Washington, DC watching nationals is is, let's call it. Yeah. The Washington nationals, you just gave it the Wikipedia. Definition and that our system learned what it was, what it meant to be. The Washington national searched, all the keywords that were unique.

And then we built out a fan site for the Washington nationals. So podcasts, videos blog posts, news posts, all in [00:08:00] one. And then depending on what people read and linked on and learned it became, things moved up and down in the rankings and it just created, a fan site for everybody automatically.

And then we had thousand meet between the two of us. We had 5,000 fan size running on box at. 

[00:08:16] Andrew Michael: Okay. And you were running that for about three years. What happened? Two bucks. 

[00:08:21] You Mon Tsang: So box set. We had 2 million daily users and it was it was advertising it was advertising support it, and we just felt we were chasing advertising dollars, which was not a great way to go, and back then, when you got to a million, they said you really needed 2 million. Oh, when you got the 2 million, you really had 5 million, a investor. So we. Pivot at that. So it was actually a great product, but we pivoted to engine one 40, which was a B2B product that basically focus only on social media.

Cause we were really, we were really good on social media and we took the same technology and said, show me all the experts on all the topics. So in other words, instead of doing fan sites, we actually [00:09:00] went to Twitter, which was new at the time and said, Hey, if somebody is interested in.

Podcasting, find me, everybody who is interested in podcasting, who they are, how do you interact with them? Who to follow and whatnot. And that became a real, super popular product that then we sold to Vocus. And I joined Vocus as a CMO then. 

[00:09:19] Andrew Michael: Very nice. It's actually similar.

Like one of the ideas like experiments with at some point was the ability to create a website from your Facebook page and use Facebook as a CMS Solea to do is add the year, all have Facebook page, and then you've got a nice website and you could add your own custom domain to it. And then the backend was managed by Facebook.

Interesting. And then you're moved as well. So there was one other company in between that I saw and the quiz, I was gonna ask you a question on this as well. Box it, you pivoted intention when 48 quiet by Vocus, but then the other side, you had another company called biz 360 that you've been running since about 2000 to 2010.

And first question is I Cardi run two companies at the same time. And then second one is. [00:10:00] 

[00:10:01] You Mon Tsang: Yeah, so I started this 360 before box set and that was, so biz 360 was a marketing analytics company. Another fantastic company did quite well sold to had a very nice outcome.

Basically. We've said, Hey, you have all this internal information about your company, you know exactly what's going on, leads, so basically it was very, you quantified your internal metrics extremely well. But how do you quantify your external metrics? And what I mean by that is that we actually went out and said, Hey, look, this is everything that's being written about.

You in the press on social, on blogs. And not only do. Grab all that information. So we basically get all the clips that were written about you. Then we would score them for, with a positive, negative, neutral how much of it was being read by you. We had statistics on who read it.

And so we would give you. Metrics on your brand, how strong it was and how was it doing against your competitors? So it was really, we were super early to that space right before we were competing with what was known as clip books at [00:11:00] the time. So flipbooks was, I don't know, you probably have never seen these, but you would walk into an office.

Sit down in the lobby and there'll be like a big book, probably hundreds of pages, longs, where, you flip through it, it'll be all the articles written by you. It'll be basically, somebody would print them all out. They would scan them and then print them all out.

And we were digital. We started as a digital version of that. And then we added analytics on top of. And so this 360 was a company that probably, before it was acquired was about eight years. And the last two years of it, I was on the board. I wasn't running it actively. And that's when I started box that.

[00:11:32] Andrew Michael: Oh yeah. Yeah, cause it's, I think it's incredibly difficult to run one company and then two at the same time. Agreed. And. It sounds like you've had a reasonably good success with all of these companies. What would you say is the single denominator, one of the main reasons you feel that you've had these successes?

Cause I think like you hear a lot of entrepreneurs and like the typical story is I tried 2, 3, 4 things. They all failed and then had this overnight success, but it sounds like you've had more of a [00:12:00] career of wins along the way. And what do you think has been The thing that's helped you along these, like this journey.

[00:12:07] You Mon Tsang: Yeah. I, I think, I certainly have my, my, my share of wins and losses. I, one of the things I'm realize is that, you sh. Be aware of what your company's capable of. If you listen hard, your company will tell you, Hey, this is really what's going on.

Don't, I can be very big or Hey, this is maybe a small product that you really need to find, a partner for. And so I think he, I think a good entrepreneur. Big ambition, huge crave activity. And also God have to be practical, right? You really need to know what this company is capable of and then also, and then steer it the right way.

So I think too many people think that everything they do will be the next Facebook, the next Google. And that's just simply not true. And now you may actually run into one. If you run into one, you better run it that way, but it's be aware of. What's a [00:13:00] logical place for that company.

And you don't often know when you start, you don't often know, but within a year, within two years, you really have a good idea. I'll give you an example, Andrew, I think, turns zero where we're building this to be a very large company, right? Because our internal metrics are telling us that, internal metrics.

Customer acquisition, onboarding renewal expansion is telling us that, we are, there's acceleration in the marketplace and we can be many times the way. Th many times bigger than we can today. As an example, Angela, one 40, when we started that company, we said, all right, in order for Angela one 40, which we built a Twitter analysis engine Oz, like in order for us to be successful, we would have to build a Facebook analysis engine.

We'd have to build LinkedIn analysis engine and are we geared to do. And so there was, either we partner with somebody, we can use our technology or we can raise a ton of money and build all those entrants out. So every company will tell you exactly what [00:14:00] it's capable of and what it needs in order to grow.

[00:14:04] Andrew Michael: And interesting. And so you've taken the sort of pragmatic approach since each other's company is trying to understand, okay is this one we're going to shoot for the moon or is there something that we really need to partner up and find someone to help it grow and continue to expand with the right partner?

You mentioned 10 zero. Then we started the episode, gave a brief intro tell us, like, how has all of this experience led to turn zero today? Is there any dots that connect the lines to turn zero? And what exactly are you doing? 

[00:14:32] You Mon Tsang: Yeah so a lot of lessons from turn, a lot of lessons from my entrepreneur.

That led to turn zero a few things that I would emphasize, that I didn't think about, when I started my first company, one was probably I'll just talk about the lessons. One lesson is it is easier to build a product. Where.

You're a buyer has a budget for it. So that's one, right? So oftentimes people like build great product and then the end it's who's going to buy it. And if you have a target buyer in [00:15:00] mind with that pain, that's super important. I think a lot of entrepreneurs myself included just like.

It was interesting to build a thing I wanted to build. So one, so that's number one. Another lesson I learned was, I love being first. I love innovation. My goodness, I'm a huge fan of innovation. I think that's easier to do B to B, a B to C, but I think B to B being first is terrible.

I think B to C being first is interesting. I think B2B being first You better gear yourself for a long time, right? Cause you have to change the way companies work. You have to convince buyers to do something different. And being first, requires all that. I think that's really interesting.

So I that's another lesson I learned. And then, the, I think another lesson, especially for B2B is. If you can have an impact on ROI, if your product and service has an impact on ROI, that's what you really need to do. If you came along and said, Hey, I'm going to be more productive, right?

Like you can certainly do. Slack is a productivity tool did really well, but I think [00:16:00] it's harder for productivity tools, which doesn't have an ROI measurement this harder to get started. Just to recap, be closer to the buyer. Make sure there's, there's buyer being first is challenging and then also, have an ROI driven product.

Those are the things that I've learned when I started turning. 

[00:16:17] Andrew Michael: Yeah, I've heard a few of these similar lessons roll. One of the ones I think on the budget that I loved as well was when I was working at Hotjar with David dominance. One of the things he used to say was like, where are you on the budget list?

And when times get tough, are you the first one out the door or you're the one that they actually can't get rid of. So it's also thinking about through that lens, like it's, like you said, it's tough though, at the same time when you want to be building a product and when you think you're innovative and stuff, but that sometimes it's not the most innovative solution that people actually really need and can get rid of it sometimes more of the boring plumbing that just, you can't get out because otherwise your building doesn't function without

So that's why How do you help customers? And how's the product. 

[00:16:58] You Mon Tsang: Yeah. So we're a customer [00:17:00] success platform and, as Andrew, the customer success space is still a relatively new department, right? I kinda think it's the next great department in the SAS in a SAS company, in a subscription business company.

And for a lot of folks it's generally still a new. It's new to them, right? So it's either you're acquainting the department or you're trying to figure out best practices. And so we work with our customers to give them a system of record for their customer success teams.

Just like marketing has, they could be using Marquetto HubSpot and whatnot, and, sales people are using, Salesforce. We want, a it department, like customer success deserves his own platform. And so that's what we're building for them.

You know how we're different, we're really focused on a. We're focused on growing mid-market and growing enterprise companies. Not the largest or large, which requires probably have very special needs, a lot of internal systems. But if you're a cloud native company right.

Growing quickly that's, we built a product for you. And Customer success platform, Andrea, as you probably know, we have to integrate with so many different pieces of data to get [00:18:00] all your customer touch points. We have to understand all the customer touch points. So we know exactly how healthy a customer is.

And then we have to like, move them along on the journey so that, they're successful. So if they're stocked, you got to do something. If they're doing really well, maybe you expand them. And so a customer success platform really helps you understand your customer. And puts them down the right path.

So they have the best experience they can with you. 

[00:18:25] Andrew Michael: Yeah. And what was the motivation then to start their business? So you gave the lessons and I think they obviously must tick those boxes there that you had, but what was it really that said, okay, this is the business I want to do next, because I asked in the beginning what keeps you going?

And you just have to, 

[00:18:40] You Mon Tsang: you know that at my last company, I was the, I was a COO first, and then I became a sort of a general manager. And then I inherited the CSMs. So I was the CMO of a large, publicly traded company that bought my company NSC. All this fantastic technology to help you manage your leads.

So I knew, my [00:19:00] leads, they were opening up my email. They were visiting my site, they were going to my webinars and then I was score them. And the hand them over to sales at exactly the right time, with exactly the right next step. All of this just unbelievable technology that I had.

And then when we closed, won that opportunity and it became an account and a customer, we pass them over to CSMs. And nothing, it's okay, here's an email. Yeah. Okay. CSM, do you have an email account? You have a phone. Okay. You get to use Salesforce, go get them. Go have, go, make them happy, go make them successful.

Go redo them. And when I saw sort of the disparity between what, the technology that was brought to bear on, on prospects, And the lack of technology brought to bear on customers. I knew there was a real opportunity for us. It was crazy that we were treating our customers that way.

And so actually in my last company, when I noticed is okay, we're going to build something. We actually looked at some of the vendors that were available at that point in customer success tech, but they were more still just dashboarding tool. [00:20:00] Point and that just wasn't good enough.

We needed automation, we needed in-app capabilities. And so we built something internally at that company and it made a big difference. We actually took 15% a bite out of churn. And then when I was ready to start my next company, I thought, what we did, there was really interesting.

Let's build something from scratch focused on this technology of this. Use case right. Of customer success. And that's what we did. And that's why I started at zero. So it was a real need right. At my last company, but it also built on a lot of the expertise that I had. Yeah. Actually,

[00:20:32] Andrew Michael: So one of the things I think from the name, turn zero as a product that Calvin years on the show, people say, let's focus on retention. Let's flip the thing. Do you think the name chin zero aides you, or it's a heart like store's growth for you as well? And I'll tell you, I like my perspective of churn zero is I, when I first heard about it, I imagined it to be a churn.

Next cetera. Cancellation forum type tool because there's a ton of them on the [00:21:00] market, but it's clearly not that. So have you found the naming and the time? 

[00:21:06] You Mon Tsang: Yeah. I look, I think naming is tricky, right? And names that work well at one stage of your company may not work well at the other part of your company.

One of the methods I have is like, when you choose a name at the beginning, you can either choose a generic name. And nobody, like you say it and you don't know what it is. There are lots of names like that. And then you have to really spend a lot of brand dollars on, infusing the meaning of that name.

So you just have, you're working. So it's tough, right. Because whatever it is nobody knows what it means. Or you can choose a name where everyone's okay, I think. And turns zero people know what you do. And then at some point you may get pigeonholed and say, okay, now that I know what you do, and you probably do more than that, are you pigeonholed into, a certain category?

We have that conversation here at turns there all the time is like, Hey, is that time for us to expand, our name? And there are. There are candidates, there are lots of examples where people do that. And there are examples where people don't like, for instance Salesforce is the biggest [00:22:00] company in SAS.

And if you just think about it it does way more than just, and managing sales forces right now. So I think it's always a good conversation to have, right. Because I think different name sort of archetypes work, for you at different types, you either choose to accelerate the beginning, or you choose to have a brand that may be, can stand the test of time. But before. The bootstrap and kickstart 

[00:22:23] Andrew Michael: goes back a little bit more to their pragmatic approach and thinking about what's working today versus where the future is going to lie. 

[00:22:30] You Mon Tsang: Oh, by the way, also I also like to speak simply about things, right?

So I'd rather just be blunt and say, Hey, this is what. Yeah. Rather than I'm going to make you guess because my name is, let's just say, that the name of my company is, happy. And it's oh, what does happy do? And are you this, for that?

It could mean a lot of different things. 

[00:22:47] Andrew Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I see we're almost up on time, so I wanna make sure I save time for a couple of questions that I'll ask every guest. Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario that you join a new company. [00:23:00] Turn our attention is not doing great at this company at all.

And the CEO comes to you and says, Hey, you won. Like we don't need to turn things around. You're in charge. We only have 90 days. What do you do? The catches. You're not going to tell him I'm going to go speak to customers or look at data and figure out what the main pain points are. You're just going to take some tactic that you've seen be effective in reducing churn fast and run with that.

Blindly hoping it works at this. 

[00:23:23] You Mon Tsang: Okay. So if you have 90 days and you have to make an impact on, on, on the retention rate in 90 days normally I would say, look the best ROI is always at the beginning for a onboarding or implementation, but in 90 days, depending on your product, you may not have any impact on that.

So I'm it normally, I would say implementation, but I'm going to skip that. I think most companies don't know. Where to focus, right? Like they're going to focus on every customer in order to increase the retention. If you are under the gun, like that, focus on, the folks who are on the cusp.

And, maybe in, in this sort of customer success parlance, you [00:24:00] can say these are yellow light customers. And so you need to be able to segment your customers really quickly to say, who's really safe. Okay. Who's fully read. They're going to turn no matter how much time you spend on them.

And it's that sort of middle folks that you need to really work hard on to, turn them from yellow to green. And so if you have 90 days and you need to add five points to your renewal rate, and I think that's, that's my suggestion for you. It's a quick fix, but maybe you'd make that quick fix that maybe then get budget to then focus on other things.

So say focus on the yellow make sure they're yellow and push them all into green. Is. And over-service them. You, no matter what it takes, 

[00:24:37] Andrew Michael: just get it done. And Nick question then is what's one thing that you noted about tryna retention that you wish you knew when you got started with your career?

[00:24:46] You Mon Tsang: Maybe I'll go back 10 years ago, but I think something that we all are learning about. Retention is really the power of revenue retention on the SAS business. I think it took, I think we, I think the whole market went into [00:25:00] subscription the subscription economy, which I think is fantastic, but I think it, Dan took another five years would be where realized, oh, in order for my company to be healthy, right.

I can't focus on just new logos. I have to focus on the retention of customers. I think, all of us have been focused on new logos for too long. And if, if there was a great SAS company starting out 10, 15 years ago, that started, that focus on renewal before they started on growth, they will have built it in.

Incredible company. That will be healthier than all the companies that are out there. Just sorta realization, you realization that the SAS metrics imply that net revenue retention is really the most important metric that you can have. And you better focus on that. So if I had learned that above, before everybody else you would build such a fantastic.

[00:25:46] Andrew Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I think it goes to the nature of the business. I think you're running a subscription business. If people are canceling the subscriptions, you don't really have a subscription business 

[00:25:56] You Mon Tsang: and I'm scared your business. Look, when it was, when I was younger, when people cancel, [00:26:00] it would be, it would be a blow like.

Stomach punch and you just felt terrible, and those are good feelings to have. But in the end, if you do the math, you realize that, it's not only a blow spiritually, because nobody likes to do a customer, but it's such a blow economically as well. 

[00:26:17] Andrew Michael: How that will be interesting as well.

Like how have you seen no. So net revenue retention change in the market over time. So going back like 10 years versus today, and maybe because you also you've raised capital in a few different companies now, how has this metric been seen one in the market and then two by investors? Has there been an evolution in the way it's been measured and tracked and, 

[00:26:37] You Mon Tsang: Yeah.

Yeah. I started my first subscription business in 1999. So this was before bust and and I've raised money on subscription businesses, meaning for decades now, and back then, like it was all about growth. And so the, I th the question from investors interested in your company, the question about retention, Never came up [00:27:00] until deep into due diligence.

And as due diligence is after they given you a term sheet, where they live, what they say they want to invest in you. And then they start doing, their diligence and making sure, your company is in good shape. And generally six meetings after your first meeting where they're like, oh, by the way, how's your retention.

That was. The conversation and you may not even know. You're like I kinda think it's this. And everyone's said, okay, that's fine. Cause everything else was, they were investing in their eyes, were on something else and that wasn't, that's back, probably in the early two thousands.

And then by the, probably the late two thousands, the early, late naughts, if you will, 2009. It was on a spreadsheet, right? Oh oh, take a look at your dashboard. It must've been bro, call it rosy. That's where the NR was. And then now it is the second question they ask.

It's okay, how's your growth? Oh, your growth. Oh, that's really great. How's your NRR. Oh, okay. And if it's. Good enough. It's one though, I'm calling Andrew a qualifying metric, right? So NR is a qualifying [00:28:00] metric and that is. If it's not good, if it's bad, nothing else matters, right?

Like you can say I'm growing 300% a year, but if your NRR is not good, your investor will not invest in you. It has to be good enough. And then everything else has to be really good. But if it's not good, people simply will not invest you anymore. So it's a qualifying metric that gets spoken about in the first five minutes of a conversation rather than, later in this stage.


[00:28:30] Andrew Michael: definitely has changed a lot over the last five to 10 years. And it is like you mentioned as well. It's one of the most important metrics. I think it's the most important metric in a SAS business is really understanding how you're attending customers. Are you actually building a subscription business at the end of the day?

[00:28:46] You Mon Tsang: And I think if you're an entrepreneur starting out, like you're not, NRR happens, at the end of, it happens later, right? You have to get your customer now. And it happens later. But my goodness, if you don't focus on, getting a customer happy, what a good customer success team right [00:29:00] away like that later is when I think that later happens quickly.

And and many investors will wait. Many investors will say, Hey, you started at, I don't know if Having product market fit doesn't mean that you can sell customers, having product market fit is when you can keep customers. And I think that's an important distinction.

You have to really think. 

[00:29:21] Andrew Michael: And that's changed a lot official, I think is what you mentioned. I was an important note though, is that when you're just getting started out, growth is really important as also, although I really believe like net revenue retention is critical. If you are going to.

An unrealistic amount of churn to begin with the BNY while you're still figuring things out while you're working on your activation, on your onboarding trying to increase these adoption metrics but keeping it in mind that it should be the focus is retention. You can still get away with losing customers at the meeting just to pour fuel on the fire to get going.

[00:29:53] You Mon Tsang: Again, and there's right, like different stages of a company. The expectations change right at the beginning, you are trying, I'm selling to [00:30:00] a lot of different companies, and so you, if you have a story and say, Hey look, we found it. We found this cord, this ideal customer profile and these folks, are going to stick with us and that's how we're focused on.

And so this is a group that, we were experimenting with and we're going to turn through them. That's a good story too. Yeah, but if five years into it, you're still turning hard, you, 

[00:30:18] Andrew Michael: yeah. Pretty sure. Very cool. You one have, it's been a pleasure chatting to you today.

Is there any final thoughts or things they should listen should be aware of before we end today? 

[00:30:28] You Mon Tsang: One great, thank you for having me as with most things, whether it's entrepreneurship focused or customer success, focus, I, I think the hardest things, that feel like impossible.

It's always just. You break it down into smaller pieces, things that you can do, like your question, what can you do? Like in the next 90 days? That's really how you conquer a batch, a bad retention metric in your company. That's how you start a company, you're just like, little steps, all add up to big steps.

It's probably the final word I would have on just trying to do something interesting and something. [00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Andrew Michael: Very cool. And for listeners, we'll definitely make sure we have all the links to anything we mentioned today and the notes. So if you want to check out them, you can do thanks again for joining today.

You want, it's been a pleasure having you, and I wish you best of luck now and this new year. 

[00:31:13] You Mon Tsang: Thanks for every meeting. Andrew 

[00:31:15] Andrew Michael: And that's a wrap for the show today with me, Andrew, Michael, I really hope you enjoyed it. And you're able to pull out something valuable for your business to keep up to date with and be notified about new episodes. Blog posts and more subscribe to our mailing list by visiting Also, don't forget to subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

If you have any feedback, good or bad, I would love to hear from you and you can provide your blend direct feedback by sending it to, lastly, but [00:32:00] most importantly, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review. As it really helps get the word out and grow the community.

Thanks again for listening. See you again next week.


You Mon Tsang
You Mon Tsang

The show

My name is Andrew Michael and I started CHURN.FM, as I was tired of hearing stories about some magical silver bullet that solved churn for company X.

In this podcast, you will hear from founders and subscription economy pros working in product, marketing, customer success, support, and operations roles across different stages of company growth, who are taking a systematic approach to increase retention and engagement within their organizations.


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