[00:00:00] Emilia D’Anzica: You win a customer back by listening. If your product was missing that feature or the services fell short, you’re acknowledging it. You’re not hiding it. You’re not saying you have it now when you don’t. You’re acknowledging the issue, and you’re working to change it.

[00:00:28] Andrew Michael: This is Churn.fm, the podcast for subscription economy pros. Each week, we hear how the world’s fastest-growing companies are tackling churn and using retention to fuel their growth.

[00:00:40] VO: How do you build a habit-forming product? We crossed over that magic threshold to negative churn. If you need to invest in customer success, it always comes down to retention and engagement. Completely boosts strategy, profitable and growing.

[00:00:54] Andrew Michael: Strategies, tactics, and ideas brought together to help your business thrive in the subscription economy. I’m your host, Andrew Michael, and here’s today’s episode.

[00:01:04] Andrew Michael: Hey, Emilia, welcome to the show.

[00:01:06] Emilia D’Anzica: Thanks, Andrew. I’m excited to be here.

[00:01:09] Andrew Michael: It’s great to have you. For the listeners, Emilia is a customer success and GTM coach and founder of Growth Molecules. Prior to Growth Molecules, Emilia held customer success leadership roles at Copper, WalkMe, and BrightEdge. And so, my first question for you today is: You’re also an entrepreneur with four exits. Do you have any plans to go for the fifth?

[00:01:30] Emilia D’Anzica: Right now, I’m really enjoying being a fractional leader across companies. I’m also enjoying being a coach to executives and doing other things outside of tech and SaaS, learning more about real estate investments. And it’s just been really fun. So I’m not thinking that way right now.

[00:01:54] Andrew Michael: I guess all of the things you are doing are, in their own way, building companies, but just from a different ambition, I would say, maybe on that side, more longitudinal. So we were just discussing a couple of topics before, and then you mentioned specifically something that you do now, which is teaching a course specifically on customer lifecycle management. Specifically, as well, you have a lot of CROs who are interested in this topic.

[00:02:23] Andrew Michael: They’ve typically led sales teams in the past and need to understand more about the customer lifecycle. And so, maybe I just want to start with that first. Why do you think this is now becoming more interesting for CROs to pay attention to? And when or why do you think there has been a switch and an interest in this topic for them?

[00:02:44] Emilia D’Anzica: I can speak to my experience teaching this program at Booth Business School in Chicago. There are professionals from all over the world. Predominantly, enterprise companies are supporting this program and sending their CROs or vice presidents of very large groups of brands, shall we say? And I think the reason why Booth Business School decided to incorporate customer lifecycle management as part of the certification program is that leaders are increasingly no longer owning just the sale or acquisition of a new client.

[00:03:30] Emilia D’Anzica: When the opportunity is closed in your CRM, that is really the beginning of the sale because you may be selling to a department in a large company, but imagine if you sell to 10 and then they keep renewing. That is where the real assets are. And so, these professionals are being asked to lead the sale post-opportunity close, the go-to-market, where there’s onboarding, adoption, and renewals. What about when you lose a customer? How do you win them back? How do you multi-thread across organizations?

[00:04:11] Emilia D’Anzica: They want their leaders to understand why that’s important so they can hire the right people to go lead those teams. And I think that’s why it’s so important that executives today understand more than just the first sale–what’s beyond that. That’s where the real money is.

[00:04:31] Andrew Michael: For sure. I think that’s definitely a growing trend in the market as well. I think one of the questions that pops to mind, obviously, is that we have a lot of listeners on the show from customer success, and typically, a lot of these things fall under customer success. But how do you see it from your perspective and your lens? And how do you see these CROs who are coming for these courses? How do you see it?

[00:04:53] Emilia D’Anzica: I’ll be honest, a few years ago, when I first noticed an increase in the number of CCOs reporting to CROs, I was upset. I thought, “Wow, this is disrespectful.” But then I noticed this type of shift, for example, even at Gainsight, where the CCO reports to the CRO. And I was shocked. I think having one owner across all of revenue is understandable. It holds people more accountable in that they don’t want to just get the sale and wait to make sure they at least adopt it so you can’t get the clawback.

[00:05:41] Emilia D’Anzica: They actually take an interest in that customer success long-term. And so, I can see it from that perspective. Now, would I rather have a CCO reporting directly to the CEO? Of course, I’m biased, but I’ve seen it at two companies where I’ve gone in as a fractional leader. And the person who replaced me, whom I helped hire, didn’t just own customer success. They owned sales as well. And they have been very successful in that role. So, as long as the goals are clearly defined and the revenue leader understands the importance of customer success and how it can actually grow the sale, then I’m obviously an advocate and supportive of that function.

[00:06:34] Andrew Michael: And I can see how you’re biased, obviously, as you were previously Chief Customer Officer at Copper. And that was when? Was it 2019 back then? So, I think that was a few years ago. Things have changed quite a bit. I think one of the shifts and trends I noticed, especially on the podcast, was that at the time, we were at the end of the ZIRP era, where startups were being demanded to show profitability, and there was a big shift in the market. I think that was really when I noticed the first big shift in customer success, where, in the past, there was almost a detachment from revenue, and it was like, “Okay, we need to protect the relationships with our customers.”

[00:07:12] Andrew Michael: And for some reason, if we talk about sales and things like that in those relationships, we spoil the dynamic. And so, this was a lot of the narrative that we were talking about in the ZIRP era. Post-ZIRP was sort of like customer success actually needs to own a revenue metric now, or else they’re not being taken seriously within the org. And they were previously seen as a cost center. And in order for you to be able to validate this team, you need to be showing an ROI.

[00:07:39] Andrew Michael: So, I think that definitely made an impact and a shift in customer success. And then, regarding this trend you’re talking about now, actually, a couple of weeks ago, we had Rebecca Stone from Plume. And although, from her perspective, it was marketing and customer success together, the thread was the same: You have revenue you’re trying to acquire pre-sale, and then you have revenue post-sale that you’re trying to acquire, and having those disconnected is not to your benefit in most cases, especially at the enterprise level. So, I think it’s definitely been an interesting transition, and I think customer success is still in its infancy when compared to something like marketing and sales. It’s a lot more established.

[00:08:18] Emilia D’Anzica: Andrew, I’ve never subscribed to the idea that CS didn’t have a role in sales. When I was at Jobvite, the ninth employee, I was very much pulled into sales. The big hospitals that were buying the applicant tracking system wanted to understand what the role of customer success was when they were critically changing how nurses and doctors were applying to jobs. So, I never subscribed to the idea that CS is not selling. Of course, we’re selling. If you’re helping a client, you’re selling, and helping sells. If they see you as offering solutions to their pain points, you’re not coming off as a salesperson.

[00:09:06] Emilia D’Anzica: You’re coming off as someone who’s helping them. And I think that’s the right approach. I’ve always advocated that. And I think that is absolutely how we stay relevant in today’s SaaS model and, honestly, any model. You go to a nail salon, you go to a dentist, and you have the reviews at the end; there goes the marketing piece. But also, if you had a good experience with the service, you’re going to go back, right? So, I think it’s relevant in any industry.

[00:09:40] Andrew Michael: Absolutely. And so, you’re teaching this course, and you go through customer lifecycle management. I’m interested specifically in what stages you go through. Maybe you could break it down for us. Obviously, we don’t want to go through the entire course over a 30- or 40-minute podcast, but what are some of the key topics that you’re hitting on? Where do you see some of the areas where CROs are a little bit hesitant or reluctant to adopt or push back on? We can start there.

[00:10:09] Emilia D’Anzica: I will say that most of the CROs or people in this program have at least 10 years of experience. The majority of them have MBAs, and they understand the importance of selling and marketing. But what’s missing for many of the organizations is understanding that the persona who has a pain point and goes to the web or goes to AI, whether it’s ChatGPT, Grok, Claude, or whatever it is, is searching for something. They have a persona, and they come to the salesperson. They become a qualified lead only after they’ve done some homework. No one is going to ask for a demo without doing a little bit of research, right?

[00:11:01] Emilia D’Anzica: And so, I think that’s the important part: How do you get found on the worldwide web or at a golf course, if that’s where your buyers are, for chiropractors or whatever product you’re selling? So, that’s honestly where we start with the search. And I’ve had Google Search come speak as a guest speaker to these professionals. And that was one of the most interesting sessions that I’ve hosted. And I think customer success starts during the search–actually, customer lifecycle management.

[00:11:39] Emilia D’Anzica: Then we go through the sale, understanding the persona, and then the sales-to-CS handoff is critical. You get that wrong, and you have a poor customer experience. Then the psychology shifts. The customer no longer trusts you because they’ve just spent all this time building trust with sales. And now someone has had a poor experience at the beginning. It’s kind of like your honeymoon goes bad. You’re like, “Oh, how do I reverse the wedding?”

[00:12:08] Emilia D’Anzica: So, that’s where we start the first few sessions, and then we really get into adoption and where there are opportunities to fail and upsell. And so, I’ll give you an example. I just finished a fractional role, and before this very large client finished onboarding, they saw so much value with the first nine clinics that were using the platform that they upsold to 44 clinics and committed to a year. And so, I argue and teach that you don’t have to wait for a client to go live to be asking questions that probe into where we can expand this sale.

[00:12:57] Emilia D’Anzica: And so, we really get deep into that. We talk about expansion opportunities, where there are opportunities to fail, and how to set up risk mitigation. And then, when you lose a client, how do you win them back? If a client gives you a 10 out of 10 on your NPS or a nine, how do you make sure they’re in front of a camera giving you a testimonial, right? Because that marketing you were just referring to from Plume–those are your best marketers. They’re often free. You can send them a gift, a token of appreciation.

[00:13:35] Emilia D’Anzica: But the psychology shows that I am more trusting of someone I can relate to than an advertisement in front of me, right? And that’s where, once again, the persona comes in. Who are the personas that people trust, that we can relate to, and that have similar pain points? And that’s honestly the course. The majority of CROs don’t have a win-back program at their company. They start building it after we walk through it. That’s really the program. They do a mock presentation at the end. It’s really fun. They’re asking for money to build a program around customer lifecycle management, and we are all the advisors and investors in the room. So, it’s a lot of fun.

[00:14:22] Andrew Michael: What do the budgets typically look like for the programs?

[00:14:28] Emilia D’Anzica: It’s interesting. Some are a quarter million; some are seven figures plus. So, there are a lot of holes being poked.

[00:14:38] Andrew Michael: Interesting. You mentioned one of the key steps. We do tend to talk about this quite a bit, but I’m keen to get your perspective on it. It’s that sort of handoff you called a handoff from sales to CS. And in my experience, this is always the part where things go wrong, at least from a buyer’s perspective, when I’ve purchased software in the past and then been handed over to somebody random that I’ve never met up until that point. And then I have to explain myself again.

[00:15:05] Andrew Michael: But how are you advising not only in this course but also when working with customers on this handoff period? What does that look like, and, in your experience working across all these companies, what have you seen to be the best approach to managing these relationships during these handoffs?

[00:15:23] Emilia D’Anzica: I think the answer lies in what segment you’re serving. So, if it’s a self-service, product-led model, let’s think of HubSpot for small businesses and entrepreneurs. They very much have a self-service-led view, and they collect the data upfront. You have to have a business email address to be able to leverage the platform for free. So, they’re gathering all the information for the salesperson to, one, upsell them. And then, once they become a customer, the customer team can sell services or upsell based on the answers you put in during that initial freemium model. And I think that’s a simple handoff where the requirements are met. So, for product-led, I think that’s best in class.

[00:16:13] Emilia D’Anzica: For enterprise, if we move to enterprise, I do believe it’s critical, whether it’s in a CRM or there’s a more formal handoff with a conversation, that the key elements to build trust are documented. And there’s zero excuse with AI for a customer call not to be fully documented. In most industries, even with the company I just finished working with, which is highly regulated, as long as you’re gaining consent from your client, you can record the call.

[00:16:52] Emilia D’Anzica: Even if you go to a doctor’s office now, they always say, “I have my phone with me. This is a company phone to record our conversation so I can upload the notes faster. Are you comfortable with this?” So really, every time there’s pushback on these types of critical conversations being recorded, it’s usually overcome. So the handoff is critical, and it needs to be documented somewhere. All too often, we end up having to go back. A client says one thing: “You promised me white label for free.” “You told me you could get out of this contract within 30 days.”

[00:17:31] Emilia D’Anzica: I’ve been through a lot of those conversations where we’ve had to go back through the CRM. But with the handoff, I believe the best ones include a conversation between the sales and CS person in an enterprise scenario, right? These are typically their multi-product, seven-figure, six-figure engagements. It deserves the 10 minutes at least for the two to talk so that you understand where their personas, what are they expecting, who’s going to be on the call? Are there any deadlines we should be aware of? Those things really are important, especially if some things should not be written in your CRM.

[00:18:15] Emilia D’Anzica: The last thing you want to be putting in your CRM is personality traits or something that could get you in trouble or that the client might see if you’re showing your screen, right? It deserves the conversation. I also believe that it’s important to meet with the client, the buyer, in advance of that kickoff. They may not even be on the call. They signed the document. Now there’s a whole team that’s going to do the implementation. That’s proof, highly valuable in a successful handoff.

[00:18:48] Andrew Michael: Very interesting. Definitely, I see it as well, from the being prepared, there’s no excuse anymore now with AI to be able to think. I think in the past you had to keep repeating yourself, and people maybe didn’t take notes or didn’t update systems. So I think that experience probably by nature now will just get infinitely better because of AI, with the CS leader needing to do very little to achieve that. While you were talking, when you mentioned the doctor’s office, actually, I was thinking about my experiences at doctor’s offices, and typically they are also similar to customer success handoffs.

[00:19:23] Andrew Michael: And you need to explain yourself again. And probably the best experience I’ve had from a single doctor was somebody who asked ahead of time; they reached out to say, “Can you please send over any previous docs from doctors and this, that?” And then when I got to the doctor’s office, the doctor had already been prepped by the team and knew exactly what to expect. We spent the time having a discussion rather than me repeating myself about what’s happened in the past. And I think that’s always typically, from a customer perspective, one of the things like, “Come on, you’ve spent so long trying to sell to us, and then you can’t update your team internally that these are the details and these are the things you should be knowing about us.”

[00:20:03] Emilia D’Anzica: I agree. The healthcare industry in the United States especially is one of the fastest growing. It’s one of the wealthiest, and consumers have a choice in selecting which healthcare system, which plan, which doctor, and if they have a poor first experience or they feel they’re not being actively heard, they’re walking away. They’re taking their business elsewhere.

[00:20:30] Andrew Michael: So I think definitely here in Cyprus, we have a reasonably good healthcare system from the government. They’re meant to document everything, but still, you go to different doctors, and nobody knows what’s going on. Half the people don’t know how to use the systems yet, but I don’t know if that’s their fault or it’s the system.

[00:20:48] Andrew Michael: So, nice. Okay. So you sort of laid out the framework that you’re going through. How long is this course typically that you’re running with these leaders? And then you mentioned a lot of them don’t really have these programs yet or up and running, and they’re coming to sort of understand. What do you see some of the successful ones doing to be able to get impact fast? It’s like today, new CRO role. I’m trying to figure out this lifecycle management thing. Where do you typically say this is the one or two places you should get started, or is it you really need to understand the business and the stage and...

[00:21:22] Emilia D’Anzica: Well, the program in itself is seven months. I have one month with them. So it’s very intense and fast. We don’t use textbooks. CROs aren’t going to read textbooks. We look at case studies, real-life scenarios, real customer journey maps. And I think that is the most impactful piece, is the journey map that they build. They get an example one that’s been built for them, but then they build their own as a group based on a scenario. And the best success story is when I went to teach in person in Chicago, one of the professionals who is graduating grabbed me and said, “I just want you to know I paid for this program out of my pockets.” He’s a management consultant. He said, “I used your course and I sold a customer lifecycle journey to a client, and it paid for this entire program and more.”

[00:22:20] Emilia D’Anzica: And so I think that’s the best success. It’s when you come out of my program, you’re acting on what you learned. I think the biggest takeaways, reading the reviews and then meeting the professionals during their graduation, is one, the win-back programs. So setting up a team to really focus on, “We’re losing customers. Let’s understand why.” And let’s make sure we’re connecting with them on LinkedIn and following their journeys so that when we set up a program with them, we’re checking, “How’s it going with your new platform after 30 days, 90 days, six months?” You never know. They may have realized they’re making a mistake. We’ve all had buyer’s remorse, let’s be honest, and winning them back.

[00:23:12] Emilia D’Anzica: And one of the clients said, “In the first year that we implemented this, we have recuperated over seven figures in revenue.” And so these programs are working. It’s really about being intentional, putting together a task force, a team to really focus on it, and then holding people accountable. Right now, with AI, people are throwing money, slapping it on ideas and programs to see what sticks. But the things that stick are the ones you stay persistent with and follow and track. They have numbers, and you’re setting up reach goals or metrics to attain. I think with any success, you have to have accountability and a North Star to work towards.

[00:24:03] Andrew Michael: How do you win back a customer?

[00:24:07] Emilia D’Anzica: There’s several ways, but one of the ways is, one, genuinely understanding their pain points and why they left your platform or your services the first time. Because studies show that if you do win them back, they’re going to be more loyal. And if someone does a backhanded reference on the product, they’re more likely to give a positive review. And that’s because they’re not crawling back, but they’re doing due diligence to make sure that this time around, it’s not a mistake.

[00:24:39] Emilia D’Anzica: So you win a customer back by listening. If your product was missing that feature or the services fell short, you’re acknowledging it. You’re not hiding it. You’re not saying you have it now when you don’t. You’re acknowledging that issue, and you’re working to change it. That’s how you win a customer back.

[00:25:01] Andrew Michael: Nice. And then you mentioned sort of have these programs, how do you structure a program like that? So obviously, I think the exit surveys and understanding the reasons. What are you typically doing within the team then if, let’s say, this was a program you wanted to set up at your org, what would you need to do this?

[00:25:19] Emilia D’Anzica: I do believe in collaborating with marketing. They can help with the communication and ensuring that you’re using the right words, leveraging the right time to have touch points with your clients so that there’s an email communication going out. That the team tasked with winning these customers back knows how to follow and connect with the customers. I always say as soon as you have a customer or a prospect, connect with them on LinkedIn.

[00:25:55] Emilia D’Anzica: Write a thoughtful note and explain to them why you want to connect with them. Build a relationship so that it’s not suddenly the customer’s churning, and now you want to build a relationship with them. Usually, it’s too late, right? They decided to churn three to six months before the renewal.

[00:26:15] Emilia D’Anzica: So you need to start the relationship from day one and then nurture it. I think nurturing it and genuinely caring, even just simple things. If you’re working in the eye care industry, let’s say, and you see an interesting article that you know will be of interest to that client you lost maybe six months ago and sending it to them: “Hey, Andrew, thinking about you, I read this article today or this new update on optometry. I thought it might be relevant. Hope you’re doing well.” Those little touch points people care about, and that’s the human element. That isn’t going away with AI. AI can’t replicate that, right?

[00:26:55] Andrew Michael: I mean, it can help with a lot of it, but I think that understanding the nuances and touch points is what humans do best. And so let me ask you maybe a couple of questions while just being cautious of time as well. That I ask every guest, and maybe this one will make sense as well in the context of lifecycle management from the CRO’s perspective. But what’s one thing that you wish more people would ask you about lifecycle management, but they don’t?

[00:27:26] Emilia D’Anzica: Why is it important to sales? That’s the question people should be asking and feeling confident answering.

[00:27:38] Andrew Michael: What is the answer?

[00:27:40] Emilia D’Anzica: You can’t just sell to a customer anymore. It’s not good enough. So easy to lose them, especially as more companies are moving to consumption models, monthly models. It’s not good enough to have a customer for one month. Investors want to see long-term loyalty.

[00:27:58] Andrew Michael: For sure. I mean, talking about loyalty and the consumption, I think pricing and packaging has changed quite a bit as well for a lot of new startups coming up. We’re moving more towards usage-based pricing, and have you noticed any shifts and changes in customer success as a function as a result of this? Any practices that are changing to deal with this? In the past, you had this fixed booking ARR, and now perhaps that’s not the same game anymore for all the new companies.

[00:28:29] Emilia D’Anzica: With the AI and all the incredible tracking mechanisms out there, GRR and losing a brand or gaining a logo and then the departments within the logo is just a hyperfocus, right? And then you can break it down further by segment. I think that’s really important. CSMs are being compensated based on expansion, on qualified leads, CS-qualified leads. All of those different levers are incredibly impactful, and CSMs are becoming more sophisticated sellers, right?

[00:29:08] Emilia D’Anzica: They’re asking more questions. It’s more inquisitive instead of, “Here’s value, value, value,” but value to who? Who are you trying to stuff this down? “Have you even heard about what my true pain point is? I don’t care about all your bells and whistles. I care about the whistle that’s going to fix my challenge,” right? So I think that’s what’s really changed.

[00:29:33] Andrew Michael: What’s one thing that you know today about churn and retention that you wish you knew when you got started with your career?

[00:29:41] Emilia D’Anzica: Everything. No, honestly, I don’t think a lot of CSMs understand the business acumen or the metrics. I think every CSM, and it serves a company, to just teach basics, fundamentals of customer success, metrics and applying emotional intelligence to relationships. I can’t tell you how many people have this title of senior CSM or manager, whatever, but they’re scared to death of talking to the C-suite or suddenly their personas change, they become more nervous or they can’t speak to metrics with confidence or saying, “You know what, Andrew, I need to go back and check with my engineering team before I give you an answer. Are you okay with me getting back to you by the end of the week?”

[00:30:38] Emilia D’Anzica: And saying it with confidence. A customer would rather know that you don’t know instead of you making something up. And I think those kinds of skills are critical today. And I wish someone sat me down and helped me. I was just thrown in. The word CSM didn’t exist yet. I forget what title I had, and I was just kind of figuring it out.

[00:31:04] Andrew Michael: I love the last point, having the confidence to say you don’t know. I think that’s not anything that applies only in CS, but probably across all roles and going up. I think when you get started in your career, you think that you’re expected to know all the answers, but in reality, that’s never really the expectation. Expectations, you learn, you’re willing to grow, and you’re going to make mistakes, but learn from them. I think having the confidence early on to be able to say you don’t know, I think, is a really powerful superweapon. Took me a long time to learn it as well.

[00:31:34] Andrew Michael: Nice here, Emilia. It’s been an absolute pleasure chatting to you today. Is there any sort of final thoughts you want to leave the listeners with or anything they should be aware of, and maybe how can they keep up to speed with your work?

[00:31:45] Emilia D’Anzica: I think for CSMs, showing up with confidence is critical to your success. Remembering that you know more than the client because you’ve been in the platform, you’ve been in the industry, maybe not as long as the client from an industry perspective, but you’re representing the brand. Show up with confidence and the human nature to be inquisitive. I think that’s important. Don’t pretend to have all the answers, but show up with willingness to be flexible and to understand what the client is seeking. If you approach your career and customer success with that view, you’ll be far more successful than lacking the confidence. I think that’s really important.

[00:32:35] Andrew Michael: Very nice. I think that’s a great note to end the show on today. So thank you very much for joining. Really appreciate it. And I wish you best of luck going forward.